2 Globe Motors???

[ChuckDickerson]

I am a bit confused (as usual). How many Globe motors are we allowed to use on the robot this year? Our KOP came with only one as the Team Update #1 clarified. Rule <R39> clearly states that we cannot use motors other than or IN ADDITION TO those provided in the KOP. I happened to be reading through some of the Questions and Answers on the FIRST site tonight and found question # 1284 answered today (1/24/2005):

Q: You instructions for changes and the kit inventory listed two globe motors. I know you only shipped one, but we need clarification. Can we use two globes as in past years ? Please change posted information if required.

A: You can use two Globe motors. You were only shipped one.

What's up with this? When and where were we notified that we could use more than the one Globe motor than came in the KOP??? Does this apply to any other motors other than the Globe motors? Did I just miss some big announcement or something? Doesn't this seem like something FIRST should have made very clear well before WEEK 3 of the build??? Since when are we allowed to use motors from last years KOP in addition to this years kit?

-Chuck

[Cory]

FIRST cleared this up in the first Team Update I believe. They implicitly stated that they incorrectly put down the quantity as two.

You are only allowed to use one globe on your robot.

**EDIT**
Sorry, I wasn't aware that the Q&A answer you received was up to date.

If this is the case, FIRST messed up big time... people will be screaming about this and the tether rule in no time.

[ChuckDickerson]

I have reread Update #1 and all it says is that the KOP should have 1 not 2 Globe motors. I understand this. What I am asking is why does the OFFICAL FIRST Q&A system (Question #1284) say that we can use 2 Globe motors???

[Cory]

Someone messed up big time... I think that's about all we can figure out for now.

Is it safe to build your robot assuming we're allowed two? who knows? Sounds to me like even more clarification from FIRST is needed

[jgannon]

Originally Posted by DeepWater

I have reread Update #1 and all it says is that the KOP should have 1 not 2 Globe motors. I understand this. What I am asking is why does the OFFICAL FIRST Q&A system (Question #1284) say that we can use 2 Globe motors???

I guess they're saying that because you can. They did the exact same thing with their ruling on how many Clippard tanks you could use. (They sent one in the kit, said you couldn't add any more, and then said that you could actually use two.) Yeah, some people will be upset. I guess we gotta deal with it. It's better that they're expanding what you can do, rather than constricting it. Now THAT would get people up in arms.

[Tristan Lall]

I noticed this too, and filed it away in the "check to see if it's still there tomorrow" category.

Incidentally, like the Globes, the Tiagene motors were supplied in unit quantity, but notated as qty. 2 in the KOP checklist; if this is intentional, they might have similar thoughts regarding the Tiagene too...now that would be very useful.

But it's probably just an error. Like the thing about electrically conductive slip rings (banned yesterday, mysteriously allowed today).

[russell]

What is this tether rule you mentioned Cory?

[Arefin Bari]

After readin all the posts in this thread, I can just call out for FIRST to give us the answer. DAVE HELP US!!!

-Arefin.

[jgannon]

Originally Posted by russell

What is this tether rule you mentioned Cory?

It was a rule from several years ago, when FIRST said you could tether your robot, so long as you didn't use it to entangle other robots. Unfortunately, teams kept stretching the definition of "entanglement" farther and farther until FIRST finally banned it, which upset a lot of people.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by russell

What is this tether rule you mentioned Cory?

In 2002 FIRST originally said that nothing that could cause entanglement with other robots would be allowed in making "tethers" to span the field. This was pretty much aimed at discouraging tape measures.

When tape measures started showing up all over the field and were allowed, people that spent tons of effort to make non entangling tethers were pretty pissed.

Same kind of thing. Teams that built their bots on the premise of one globe won't be happy if this is right

[Tristan Lall]

Originally Posted by russell

What is this tether rule you mentioned Cory?

If I had to guess, it would be the particularly awful "tape measure" rules and rulings from 2002. In that year, there was concern about entanglement by extensible devices, like motorized tape measures; contradictory Q&A answers were posted, then the entanglement rules were clarifed and reinterpreted--but by the time the season came around, teams were regularly installing and using illegal ones (such as from vendors other than Small Parts), and getting away with it. Plus, the penalties for entanglement itself were not consistently enforced.

[Holtzman]

See team Update #1

Taigene Sliding Door Motor
The "Gray Container Item 5 Loose" should have contained 1 motor, not 2. The Kit of Parts
list incorrectly specified a quantity of 2.

Globe Motor
The "Gray Container Item 5 Loose" should have contained 1 motor, not 2. The Kit of Parts
list incorrectly specified a quantity of 2.

[ChuckDickerson]

Forgive me if I am incorrect here since I was not around FIRST before last year but this seems totally different than the "tether" rule being spoken of. That seems more like a rule interpretation issue. The 2 vs. 1 Globe motor thing seems more cut and dry to me.

1) <R39> clearly says we can only use the motors in the KOP.
2) We all got one Globe Motor in the KOP.
3) Three weeks into the build season FIRST now says "Oh yeah, you can really use 2 Globe motors if you want."

It is hard to say we will have to just "wait and see tomorrow" since we are almost half way through the build season.

Edit: Does this mean we can also use 2 of the Taigene motors as well?

-Chuck

[Tristan Lall]

Originally Posted by Holtzman

See team Update #1

Sorry Tyler, but this was issued today*...it's newer than the update.

Originally Posted by DeepWater

Forgive me if I am incorrect here since I was not around FIRST before last year but this seems totally different than the "tether" rule being spoken of. That seems more like a rule interpretation issue. The 2 vs. 1 Globe motor thing seems more cut and dry to me.

1) <R39> clearly says we can only use the motors in the KOP.
2) We all got one Globe Motor in the KOP.
3) Three weeks into the build season FIRST now says "Oh yeah, you can really use 2 Globe motors if you want."

It is hard to say we will have to just "wait and see tomorrow" since we are almost half way through the build season.

Edit: Does this mean we can also use 2 of the Taigene motors as well?

-Chuck

The tether situation was merely an example of some badly-executed rulings by the Q&A team, exacerbated by inconsistent officatiation. It's not directly related, yet.

Since they haven't actually said that two Tiagene motors are allowed (only taking the unusual step of doing so with the Globes), I don't think that that's a good assumption; as I said, this will probably become clear tomorrow. If that's not satisfactory, call FIRST in the morning (there's a number in the manual), and they'll sort something out.

*Today, meaning just before midnight, yesterday, the 24^th....

[Holtzman]

I stand corrected