Constitutional Rights at school?

[Levin571]

I find it quite odd that at schools here in America where students learn about the constitutional rights, like the right of free speech and the right to no unresonable search and seizure, that these rules are bent and broken by the administration to the point where they are essentially nul and void.

An example is that I rescently discovered that my boarding school uses a program called "AIM sniffer" to log the AIM messages of all the students on our intranet (both incoming and outgoing). This is a clear violation of both the first and fourth amendments, and even thought cases like this have been brought to court, it still persists.

Another one is the locker inspections that sometimes occur at high schools, where even if there is basis for the search. While this can catch potential crimes or other actions, what about those innocent students who are just bystanders?

I want to know what is the opinion of the CD community on this issue (yes i know it had nothing to do with robotics, but i feel it is a resonable question concidering how many of us are or were students at one time).

[Eugenia Gabrielov]

First of all, the chit chat thread is precisely that: you can discuss whatever you desire . We've had a lot of stuff here in the past few months weeks whatever, much of it not pertaining directly to robotics. Thanks for bringing up this issue.

My school also has rules on locker searches. The question is what is more illegal: bringing a gun to school, or getting a locker searched? You'd think it's common sense not to bring a gun, but some people won't realize that. The same may apply to drugs and other paraphanalia (spelling?).

As far as the AIM sniffer goes, you may want to check on your school policy, and the stuff you and your parents probably signed at the beginning of the year. Since I know you go to a school where you also live, it may be legal to monitor AIM. However, the way you describe it seems a bit extreme. If you signed it in the school policy, you're pretty much stuck.

I think the locker issue is acceptable as far as searching goes, but only with a warrant/permission. I feel it should be just like searching someone's house or car: you need a warrant to arrest or catch them on anything. I feel that random locker searches are inappropriate, because well, I just don't feel comfortable knowing that they had no reason to go but just want to get me or someone else for something.

And yes, I read my highschool handbook.

[GateRunner]

My school rulebook specifically bans ninja stars and nunchaku.

As far as the locker searches go, I dont think its a massive inconvience for them to search a locker, especially since, if you've got nothing in there that is illegal, you wont get in trouble, and they aren't going to ruin your day by checking. At least, I hope not. :-p

Genia pretty much said it with the Aim sniffer.

[Adam Krajewski]

The big SCotUS case in this matter is New Jersey v. T.L.O. (1985). The key idea in the decision is that school officials may conduct searches under "reasonable suspicion", which is considerably less than the "probable cause" needed by police in other situations.

Random locker searches are allowed due to some slick maneuvering in that they are claimed to prevent rules violations rather than catch offenders. In Zamora v. Pomeroy, it was deemed legal for drug sniffing dogs to sniff around lockers and cars to not be considered a "search". However, if the dog detected anything, that provided the necessary "reasonable suspicion" for a search.

As far as the AIM sniffer, there are several different ways to use public key encryption over AIM, which would solve your immediate privacy concerns.

[Jeff Rodriguez]

With the lockers, I don't see any problems. You are using their property. If you don't like it, you don't have to have a locker.

About AIM, I have to go to class so I don't have enough time to write everything.

[tkwetzel]

Originally Posted by Eugenia Gabrielov

My school also has rules on locker searches. The question is what is more illegal: bringing a gun to school, or getting a locker searched? You'd think it's common sense not to bring a gun, but some people won't realize that. The same may apply to drugs and other paraphanalia (spelling?).

As far as the AIM sniffer goes, you may want to check on your school policy, and the stuff you and your parents probably signed at the beginning of the year. Since I know you go to a school where you also live, it may be legal to monitor AIM. However, the way you describe it seems a bit extreme. If you signed it in the school policy, you're pretty much stuck.

I think the locker issue is acceptable as far as searching goes, but only with a warrant/permission. I feel it should be just like searching someone's house or car: you need a warrant to arrest or catch them on anything. I feel that random locker searches are inappropriate, because well, I just don't feel comfortable knowing that they had no reason to go but just want to get me or someone else for something.

And yes, I read my highschool handbook.

I know that schools in Fairfax County, VA have signs posted as you enter the parking lot that say that by driving on that property you are allowing school officials/police to search your vehicle for any or no reason. There is a thing about lockers in the Students Rights & Responsibilities (SR&R) book that they require everyone to sign. I never did sign it my junior or senior year...and somehow they didn't come looking for me to sign it like they do with most students. But I do agree that the locker belongs to the school and they are letting you borrow it, so they may search it if they want to.

Originally Posted by Ogre

With the lockers, I don't see any problems. You are using their property. If you don't like it, you don't have to have a locker.

About AIM, I have to go to class so I don't have enough time to write everything.

However, I do hate these policies. I believe that everyone should have the rights preserved for them in the Constitution, whether they are a student or not. The incident that happened in GA last year or the year before was IMHO unnecessary and uncalled for. If you are unaware, police raided a high school before classes started with sniffer dogs. Some of the cops had weapons drawn too. They swept through the school, forcing students to get on the ground and against the walls. They used the dogs to sniff all the lockers and students and their backpacks and found absolutely nothing. I do not think that this incident was within reason on the part of school officials and the police involved.

Overall, I am a big advocate for personal rights that are given in the Constitution. I could ramble on about personal rights, but I will try to keep this thread on topic.

[Billfred]

And the AIM sniffer may well be allowable. After all, it is their network.

Of course, if I ruled the world the students would know full and well that all AIM conversations on the school's network can be logged and published publicly. A 21st-century version of the "all notes passed in class can be read"

On the flip side, there is a simple solution--don't use AIM.

<Edit>And by the way, that raid was in South Carolina. Goose Creek High, IIRC.</edit>

[tkwetzel]

Originally Posted by Billfred

<Edit>And by the way, that raid was in South Carolina. Goose Creek High, IIRC.</edit>

That was not the one that I heard about. I am positive that it was in GA. There may have been another raid in SC that I did not hear about though.

[Cory]

In California certain constitutional rights are forfeited the minute you step on school campus. Mainly the ones you already mentioned.

It's the school's job to keep you safe. That's been deemed important enough for you to sacrifice those rights. I'm against things like the Patriot Act, but I really don't see the problem here. What do you have in your locker and/or car that you don't want to see? If you don't have anything allowed, what's the problem?

Now what does get me pretty hacked is when people get expelled for things like having been "caught" with a pocketknife, multi-tool, etc in their cars, on school campus. Things like that are an example of not using common sense to interpret rules.

And on the network issue, you're using their network, it's a private network, and they determine the rules. Just like you have freedom of speech, but you can't just start cursing everyone out here on ChiefDelphi, because it's ran by a group of individuals that make their own rules. Rules which very well may impair your freedom of speech, but that's just too bad.

Also, this is almost backwards thinking, but that raid could have had a beneficial effect--Who in their right mind is going to bring a gun or weapon on campus after they just had the SWAT team storm the school and hold them at gunpoint?

Maybe if people actually respected(some) laws and rules, we wouldn't even be having this discussion
$0.02

[KyleGilbert45]

I've seen discussions like this before and I'm just going to state what I think about these topics.

I think the school has every right to search "THEIR" lockers, with "their" being the key term. People always argue that the lockers tend to be their own personal property/space but you have to remember that the school owns the locker, not you. It is also your choice to use their locker in most situations, so if you have something to hide, hide it somewhere else.

I've never heard of schools using any type of "AIM Sniffer" but they also discouraged the use of any chat programs at my high school. I would also have to agree that the school has the right to log your conversations since it is "their" network.

Anyways, this is just my personal opinion and I would not have had any problem if my old high school wanted to search my locker or log my conversations or monitor what websites I looked at or anything similar to this.

[Bcahn836]

Our school uses the drug dogs to search the lockers and the parking lots of our school. Not only that they try to cover it up by saying there is an "intruder drill" which made all of the students sit on the floor and stay low with the lights out and no one could leave. We sat there for at least 2 hours, which was useless because they found nothing.

But if the dogs did detect something in a locker then the admin would have probable cause and then could search the locker without consent, the same with the vehicles outside. I think

[GateRunner]

Just a little addition:

Being on your school's network, its not just a "Its my network and I can do what I want with it". You also have to remember that on whatever network you are connected too, something leads back to your provider. While not the same thing with companies providing internet service, if say, your school gave you access through their network and unknowingly allowed you to post "hateful" (You know what I mean) things, it could(however unlikely) be misunderstood as their support for whatever you said. Kinda covering their butt thing :-p

Important about those locker and/or car searches is that the school isn't just looking to bust someone, they're looking out for however many students could be affected if one did have something dangerous on campus.

In my own arguments pre-emptive defence, the difference between this and, say, searching your house, is there are only so many "personal" things you could possibly have in your locker, compared to your home. :-p

*edit*
Humorous note: A drug dog once dug into a girl's bag, only to eat her peanutbutter and jelly sandwich

[Travis Hoffman]

Originally Posted by Levin571

An example is that I rescently discovered that my boarding school uses a program called "AIM sniffer" to log the AIM messages of all the students on our intranet (both incoming and outgoing). This is a clear violation of both the first and fourth amendments, and even thought cases like this have been brought to court, it still persists.

I'm going to sound like an old fart for posting this, but.....

Back in MY day (1995), when I was a young whippersnapper, we didn't even HAVE Internet access at my high school in my podunk farmer town of Kinsman, OH! I often wonder why schools permit the use of such chat tools during school hours. I think learning, listening to the teacher, taking notes in class, studying during downtime, and doing my homework are all activities that should supersede chatting with my friends, sending email, taking naps, or (gasp!) browsing ChiefDelphi during school hours. AIM access is not something school districts are obligated to provide their students. I'd feel fortunate that your school even allows you to use AIM in the first place and deal with whatever restrictions they place upon the use of the software.

And yes, the school owns the lockers, so I feel they have the right to search them if they have reasonable cause to do so. Random searches seem a bit pointless, and I do think making kids lie down on the ground at police gunpoint is extremely uncalled for, however.

[phrontist]

Originally Posted by KyleGilbert45

I think the school has every right to search "THEIR" lockers, with "their" being the key term. People always argue that the lockers tend to be their own personal property/space but you have to remember that the school owns the locker, not you.

And who owns the school? ;-)

Originally Posted by KyleGilbert45

It is also your choice to use their locker in most situations, so if you have something to hide, hide it somewhere else.

Not everyone who values their civil liberties "has something to hide". It's a slipperly slope indeed...

Originally Posted by KyleGilbert45

I've never heard of schools using any type of "AIM Sniffer" but they also discouraged the use of any chat programs at my high school. I would also have to agree that the school has the right to log your conversations since it is "their" network.

I agree Kyle, but for subtly different reasons. It is a public resource as much as any. Taxpayer money pays for that connection, and if officials elected by the taxpayers have deemed you can't use IM, they are acting on behalf of the people who paid for that connection. If you have a problem with it, attend some school board meetings.

Originally Posted by Eugenia Gabrielov

My school also has rules on locker searches. The question is what is more illegal: bringing a gun to school, or getting a locker searched? You'd think it's common sense not to bring a gun, but some people won't realize that.

IANAL but if I recall correctly it's legal to bring a gun to school in many states (in your car), if you have a gun rack and are otherwise obeying the law. I believe this is the case in Virginia.

Originally Posted by Levin571

An example is that I rescently discovered that my boarding school uses a program called "AIM sniffer" to log the AIM messages of all the students on our intranet (both incoming and outgoing). This is a clear violation of both the first and fourth amendments, and even thought cases like this have been brought to court, it still persists.

Well, I'm no good at solving social problems, but I can usually fix issues with technical wizardry. The most obvious solution is to use encryption (Google for info, it's very easy with AIM and GAIM). If you want to go a step further, I could whip up a little program for you that logs on to two AIM screen names (one of them being yours and the other being one set up for this purpose) and sends text back and forth randomly in the background. Get a bunch of people to run this and they'll have too much data on their hands to sort through. Oooh, and you could even make it statistically identical to real AIM convos with a markov algorithm, foiling their attempts to read through it.

[tkwetzel]

Originally Posted by phrontist

IANAL but if I recall correctly it's legal to bring a gun to school in many states (in your car), if you have a gun rack and are otherwise obeying the law. I believe this is the case in Virginia.

Nope. It is illegal to bring a gun to school in Virginia under any circumstances. However, if you bring one to school in the trunk of your car, there is no reason for them to find it, thus not getting in trouble for it.