Midfield Collisions

[OZ_341]

Originally Posted by Max Lobovsky

Mr. Lavery, if you have the guts to take that from some stranger's hands (regardless of the strangers intentions or background), drop it into the robot you have worked for 6 long, hard weeks on right before one of the maybe 25 actual matches your robot will play, you are a braver man than me.

One of our many strategies in 2003 was to approach our partners, well in advance, to help them with their Auton code and any mechanical issues.

Maybe we just got lucky, but we found many teams that appreciated the programming help. They ended up with permanent code they could use and we had a better partner.

We feel that was a major factor in our success at the 2003 Championship. Also our team went home knowing that we had helped many teams over the course of the year. Overall a great feeling.

[Ianworld]

Robots that can tap the vision tetra in autonomous mode are going to be very very rare. 1% might be too low a number but most regionals will only have one or maybe even no robots that can do it. That being said, its a huge advantage and is well worth that alliances time to protect the robot that can. Only two robots can run through the sides during autonomous and try to stop the vision tetra bot. My guess is that the vision tetra's two partners will also rush through the two gaps stopping any opposing robot from doing the same. You just have to hope you line all your robots up correctly so that it all works out. Its going to be tricky.

[Anchi]

We are buildign to take the hits, and dishout more than our fair share in auto. we had thought abotu mounting the controler on a foam pad or somethign along those lines to prevent bad jaring.

[russell]

Yeah. I know it has been noted that they actually give you a higher weight limit this year to accomplish way less. I think this is partly because they realised there were too many tasks last year, but also as they repeatedly emphasized at kickoff the game this year is going to result in a lot of colisions. Beef up your bot. (wow thats a catchy phrase)

[Paul Copioli]

A fact:

You do not have to shoot the gaps to block the center goal (or any goal, for that matter) in autonomous.

A question:

What is faster: Finding a vision tetra, picking it up, finding the goal, moving to the goal, capping; or driving straight about 17' and placing an arm above the goal?

-Paul

[Mark McLeod]

Originally Posted by Max Lobovsky

I think its pretty unlikely that you will see many teams reporgramming other teams bots in the 1/2 hour or so that they have to prepare for matches.

My programmers and I have been doing it for years
At the events we spend much more time programming other robots than our own.
If we get all the teams at least rolling during autonomous then we've succeeded. Keep your expectations low and at the very least move them into a better position for the drivers to take over.

[dlavery]

Originally Posted by Paul Copioli

A fact:

You do not have to shoot the gaps to block the center goal (or any goal, for that matter) in autonomous.

A question:

What is faster: Finding a vision tetra, picking it up, finding the goal, moving to the goal, capping; or driving straight about 17' and placing an arm above the goal?

-Paul

Great point! And think about the alliance with one really good vision-tetra-capping-capable robot and two boxes on wheels, going up against the alliance with one really good uber-long-goal-blocking-arm robot and two boxes on wheels. I can just imagine the intra-team debates that will be happening:

RedTeam1: We can cap the vision tetra on the center goal, so let's set our robot to go there while you two block them and keep them out of our way.

RedTeam2: Yeah, but Blue knows that you can do that, so they are going to set their BigBlueArm to block the center goal. You need to go to the left side goal.

RedTeam3: But Blue knows that we know they have the BigBlueArm. And they are probably figuring that we are figuring that they will go to the center goal, and are going left instead. I bet they are already setting the BigBlueArm to go left. So we need to go to the right side middle goal.

RedTeam1: But we know that they know that we know they have the BigBlueArm. And we know that they know that we know they can block the middle goal, and will probably go to the side goals. But they don't know that we know that they know that we know that they can block the middle goal, and will probably go to the side goals. But since we do, we should go to the middle goal.

RedTeam3: But they do know that! We partnered with BigBlueArm three matches ago against you, and noticed then that when you know that they know that you know that they know you are going to the center goal, you always go the left goal instead, and we told them that. So this match they are going to expect you to go to the middle goal. But they know that you know they expect you to go to the middle goal, and will go to the left goal instead.

RedTeam2: But hopefully they don't know that you know that they know that you know they expect you to go to the middle goal, and will go to the left goal instead. So you should go to the right goal.

RedTeam2: But don't you think that they are smart enough to know that you guys were one their alliance before, and know what they know? They must know that we know that they know that you know that they know that you know they expect you to go to the middle goal, and will be planning go to the left goal instead. So they know that we will probably go to the right goal. So we need to go to the center goal.

RedTeam1: Ah, but I think that you are about to fall victim to one of the classic blunders. The most famous is "Never get involved in a land war in Asia." But only slightly less well known is this: "Never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line." And my late Sicilian Uncle Vizzini always taught me that if you know the other guy is smart enough to know that your partner was once their partner, they must know that you know some of what they know. And since we know they must know that we know that they know that you know that they know that you know they expect you to go to the middle goal, and will be planning go to the left goal, but are planning to go to the center goal since they know that we would normally go to the right goal, we have to do something completely different. So we have to figure out what we know that they don't know...

Meanwhile, on the Blue side of the field:

BlueTeam1: Do you think that we should say something to them?

BlueTeam2: I dunno. Probably.

BlueTeam3: Yeah, we should. I mean, the match was over two minutes ago. We scored 67 points while they sat there plotting and planning. Of course, we would have scored a lot more if BigBlueArm hadn't fallen over during autonomous because it was running all over trying to block all three goals against red robots that weren't even there...

BlueTeam2: So I wonder what they are still talking about?

[Paul Copioli]

Believe it or not, Dave latched onto exactly what I was getting at.

You gotta love the "Princess Bride" reference. By the way, didn't the Sicilian get poisened anyway?

-Paul

[dhitchco]

I got a big kick out of Dave's latest response to this thread. The mention of Sicilian tactics is really great. So, as long as we're at it, how about some of the sayings of the great Chinese warrior Sun Tsu. A lot of what goes on in this FIRST Robotics competition is NOT what the robots do on the field.

So...HERE IS the complete text with these great "sound bites":

• All warfare is based on deception.
  Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near.
  Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him.
  If he is secure at all points, be prepared for him, If he is in superior strength, evade him.
  If your opponent is of choleric temper, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant.
  If he is taking his ease, give him no rest. If his forces are united, separate them.
  Attack him where he is unprepared, appear where you are not expected.
  These military devices, leading to victory, must not be divulged beforehand

[Alan Anderson]

These military devices, leading to victory, must not be divulged beforehand

Oops.

[MattB703]

I agree with dhitchco.

I've been think for a while that the key to strategy in this game is to sandbag. Set the field up and then turn a couple rows right at the end.

This game is closer to Othello than Tic-tac-toe.

[Greg Ross]

Originally Posted by MattB703

This game is closer to Othello than Tic-tac-toe.

I had that thought too. I've never been very good at Othello.

[phrontist]

This game is so bloody fantastic because it's like that british tick-tac-toe variant where you can invert X's to O's. Martin Gardner mentions it in his "Hexaflexagon" book...

[Mr. Van]

Originally Posted by dlavery

Great point! ... I can just imagine the intra-team debates that will be happening:

RedTeam1: We can cap the vision tetra ...

So we have to figure out what we know that they don't know...

Meanwhile, on the Blue side of the field:

BlueTeam1: Do you think ...

So I wonder what they are still talking about?

Dave- You have too much time on your hands. (Yes, I got a kick out of it - thanks!)

Regarding blocking blockers: Of course, you gotta figure that the other team just might quite possibly do the same thing as you and send out some blocking 'bots, which would have to get there quickly... say in a few seconds... using the supplied drive train in the kit... (2 * 10 ft/s = SMASH!) and we are back where we started.

Have I got this wrong? Perhaps all of the "tic-tac-toe/othello" analogies a bit off. Perhaps the game we should be looking at (with heavy blockers and more fragile scorers) is... football?

-Mr. Van

[Ctrl Alt Delete]

yes. well it is quiet easier to stop someone from capping more than it is to actually cap. If you take into consideration that for autonomous the robots will first have to find the tetras then go over to them and cap them. All the robots that are going to stop to the capping robots are going to do is just get into the field of view of the robot and the robot won't be able to find the vision tetra.