Constitutional Rights at school?

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Joshua May

I'll just add in a couple anecdotes to this conversation.

First of all, I have a breach of my own for an example. Two years ago, a teacher who I will say is now spending some quality time in an institution, called in a bomb threat to the school. The school called a fire drill, and all 4,000 students and teachers stood outside for 2 hours. When we returned to class to get our backpacks, we found that my teacher's door was unlocked (she had locked it when leaving) and many of our bags had been noticably moved and apparently searched through. In this case, the school did, in fact, search through every students' private property. Searching through the rooms, fine, its their property, but the students', its not.

Um, it was a bomb threat, what do you expect them to do?

They had to cover all angles. Someone said a bomb is in the school. You can't just dismiss that. 9 times out of 10 a bomb threat is fake (probably more than that, really), but it doesn't bother me at all if they have to go through people's backpacks to make sure that there is indeed no bomb on the campus.

If a bomb went off because some local police force didn't search backpacks, everyone would be screaming bloody murder and demanding that all bags be searched any time there was a threat.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't

[Adam Y.]

Originally Posted by Cory

Wait, so say I get stopped by the cops at a checkpoint for drunk drivers on a saturday night. They think they smell booze on my breath, and Im acting drunk, and the car smells like alcohol, so they ask me to get out and search the car.

Now they don't find any alcohol, but they find a few bricks of cocaine. They can't prosecute me for the cocaine? The hell they can't

Actually if they use a drug dog then they can convict you. Even if you get caught speeding and they use a drug dog then you can be convicted. As long as they don't go inside of the car and use a drug dog then you can be convicted. The outside of your car aparently does not count as private property.

[Petey]

Originally Posted by Adam Y.

Actually if they use a drug dog then they can convict you. Even if you get caught speeding and they use a drug dog then you can be convicted. As long as they don't go inside of the car and use a drug dog then you can be convicted. The outside of your car aparently does not count as private property.

Case law, please.

--Petey

[Carolyn Duncan]

I must preface this post with a few comments; when I was learning to read I was handed "Common Sense" by Thomas Payne and that my friends is something everyone should read,though not necessarily as a learning to read book. The same person who taught me to read using this pamphlet is a police officer. My high school admin, with the exception of my government teacher, very much disliked me because I knew not only my rights but theirs as well and I pushed the limit everyday staying within my legal rights. I was seen as a tyrant who encouraged the other students and a "distraction to the learning process" a phrase which in our student handbook means a suspendable offense.
I grew up in Va with very southern family members, except my father who is an Ohio native. Carrying a gun in the south is very common, and so is an unloaded gun.You see we have a lock law in Va thats basically states guns must be kept unloaded and with a lock when not in use, while this is one of those unenforced laws it does still exist.
Now then,at my high school in Williamsburg,Va there were MANY arguments about these rights violations based on different events. As for the AIM deal, if it is a computer in a classroom it would make sense that it might not be as private as you might like. It is another thing if it is a computer in your room. There are government programs that scan every sent email in the country for certain key words and phrases, ie the words bomb, drugs, president, house, white, you get the idea. While not exactly very high on the ethics side of life it is our "homeland security" at work. So what if I sent an email about the president of my company wanting me to plan a bomb party at his newly painted white house where we drug the old carpeting out to the street... you get the point. I get put on an FBI list and watched more closely. I have done nothing wrong and yet I am being silently persecuted, singled out for no reason. You see where I may have a problem with this?
Another issue of searches on school grounds. My high school openly stated that once you enter school property you no longer have any rights. As far as vehicles on school property (including the parking lot), if there is nothing in plain sight from the windows they cannot look in your car, NO MATTER WHAT, without the owner's permission. Basically, students if you are driving a car with your parent's name on the title you DO NOT have permission to grant a search. Lockers and their enclosed articles are subject to search at anytime for any reason. Bottom line don't use it if you don't need it. My school tried to force us to use lockers by banning backpacks and jackets in classrooms. I only signed for school text books my first semester of high school. Often times you can get the exact text book from a library and never have to carry it around school. Leave the checked out book at home and borrow a book in school from a teacher or something to the likes. I carried a writing utensil and a note book only for years. We had a problem of bomb threats one year and so we were forced to walk through metal detectors everyday because of it. When you walk through a metal detector you have to put your bag on the table,therefore making it fair game for search as it is no longer a part of your person. Thus making anything found admissible and detainable. Even if you are 18 cigarettes can be taken away and you can get in trouble for them- just make sure you don't have a lighter too. I would intentionally wear plenty of metal on my belts, shoes, jewelry,etc and refuse to be pat down or searched by a male teacher. No offense but it worked, it got the teachers and admin as aggravated with me as the students were with them. We were also allegedly limited by a dress code which was never strictly enforced. So everyday I would make a VERY detailed list of violators and infractions then personally delivered the list to make sure the admin received copies. They claimed that all the staff didn't have the resources to catch everyone so single me decided to help them out. I mean come on how hard is it for a teacher to look at the students walking in the door to class?
As far as the school that suspended students for their hair color-just after that aired on MTV my high school attempted to do the same. So the entire student body, parents approved colored their hair and maintained that we couldn't concentrate on our studies because the color of the teacher's hair was distracting so we either wanted new staff, new hair color, or get rid of the rule. These are only a few of the reasons that the entire staff of my high school stood up and cheered when I accepted my diploma- as I broke graduation ceremony rules about not altering my hat or robe. So what if I folded up the corners of my hat and wrote on it, and ok maybe the robotics pins on a sash across my robe was a little much. But hey, I called it my robotics honor cord.

[Andrew Hospodor]

Originally Posted by Levin571

I find it quite odd that at schools here in America where students learn about the constitutional rights, like the right of free speech and the right to no unresonable search and seizure, that these rules are bent and broken by the administration to the point where they are essentially nul and void.

An example is that I rescently discovered that my boarding school uses a program called "AIM sniffer" to log the AIM messages of all the students on our intranet (both incoming and outgoing). This is a clear violation of both the first and fourth amendments, and even thought cases like this have been brought to court, it still persists.

Another one is the locker inspections that sometimes occur at high schools, where even if there is basis for the search. While this can catch potential crimes or other actions, what about those innocent students who are just bystanders?

I want to know what is the opinion of the CD community on this issue (yes i know it had nothing to do with robotics, but i feel it is a resonable question concidering how many of us are or were students at one time).

The constitution protects your from the gov't, not necessarily a private institution. And if your school has a student rule book, I would suggest looking in there. Typically, private schools have a set list of rules some of include random locker searches, random computer searches, and other things as such. The program AIM Sniffer is perfectly legal. It is their internet connection, you are just borrowing it in a sense. Plus, if there exists a rule that says they can randomly search your computer/network, they will win. I would really consider going over the rule book and if they don't list that they can randomly have searches, question the administration.

Just some thoughts, interesting point though

[Andrew Hospodor]

Originally Posted by Cory

Um, it was a bomb threat, what do you expect them to do?

They had to cover all angles. Someone said a bomb is in the school. You can't just dismiss that. 9 times out of 10 a bomb threat is fake (probably more than that, really), but it doesn't bother me at all if they have to go through people's backpacks to make sure that there is indeed no bomb on the campus.

If a bomb went off because some local police force didn't search backpacks, everyone would be screaming bloody murder and demanding that all bags be searched any time there was a threat.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't

Once you walk onto a public school campus, you basically give yourself up to be searched. They can search your back pack if they want to without consent. Thus, this is perfectly legal, unless you were at a private school. In which case I am sure that in the student rule book there is a small messege that says something along the lines of "we reserve the right to search any student or students belongs at anytime." This is for situations just like this. Though I don't agree to sacrifice freedoms for security (cough patriotact cough) I do believe that when it is drawn out in such a way that the person is willingly going to school and knows a possible search could occur, then no constitutional right has been infracted upon.

Again, just some thoughts...

[Andrew Hospodor]

Originally Posted by Adam Y.

Actually if they use a drug dog then they can convict you. Even if you get caught speeding and they use a drug dog then you can be convicted. As long as they don't go inside of the car and use a drug dog then you can be convicted. The outside of your car aparently does not count as private property.

The outside of your car is not private property. In addition, if you are drugging up in your car and a police officer sees you doing this, they can extract your from the vehicle, search you, and search the car. This is because of probable cause. If an officer of the law believes someone is doing something illegal or that someone is in direct danger, they can break the fourth amendment. If at a later point it is determined that the officer did not have probable cause, anything they found while searching you or your property cannot be used as evidence against you.

More thoughts

[tkwetzel]

Originally Posted by Andrew Hospodor

Once you walk onto a public school campus, you basically give yourself up to be searched. They can search your back pack if they want to without consent. Thus, this is perfectly legal, unless you were at a private school. In which case I am sure that in the student rule book there is a small messege that says something along the lines of "we reserve the right to search any student or students belongs at anytime." This is for situations just like this. Though I don't agree to sacrifice freedoms for security (cough patriotact cough) I do believe that when it is drawn out in such a way that the person is willingly going to school and knows a possible search could occur, then no constitutional right has been infracted upon.

Again, just some thoughts...

No...you do not give yourself up to be searched. I would not let anyone at school search me unless they had probable cause, which they would never have. Schools push the limit when it comes to infringing on student's rights.

Originally Posted by Andrew Hospodor

The outside of your car is not private property. In addition, if you are drugging up in your car and a police officer sees you doing this, they can extract your from the vehicle, search you, and search the car. This is because of probable cause. If an officer of the law believes someone is doing something illegal or that someone is in direct danger, they can break the fourth amendment. If at a later point it is determined that the officer did not have probably cause, anything they found while searching you or your property cannot be used as evidence against you.

More thoughts

If the officer believes you are doing something illegal and has probable cause he can search you and/or your vehicle. If someone is in imminent danger, that is probable cause enough to search, meaning that the cop would not be breaking the fourth amendment. There is absolutely no reason for anyone to act against any of the amendments. There are a few exceptions, like felons who lose their rights when they are convicted.

[Adam Y.]

Originally Posted by Petey

Case law, please.

--Petey

The Case

[Andrew Hospodor]

Originally Posted by tkwetzel

No...you do not give yourself up to be searched. I would not let anyone at school search me unless they had probable cause, which they would never have. Schools push the limit when it comes to infringing on student's rights.



If the officer believes you are doing something illegal and has probable cause he can search you and/or your vehicle. If someone is in imminent danger, that is probable cause enough to search, meaning that the cop would not be breaking the fourth amendment. There is absolutely no reason for anyone to act against any of the amendments. There are a few exceptions, like felons who lose their rights when they are convicted.

In the state of CA, I believe you do give up your 4th amendment, but I am not positive. However, in a private school they can search you by virtue of the fact "they are not the gov't," which is what the contstitution protects you from. Plus, they are a private instituion on private property, not public property.

Thanks for listening