No Java for XP

[Kyle Fenton]

I had just heard a report on zdnet that Java support will be terminated on Window's XP.

http://www.zdnet.com/anchordesk/stor...791052,00.html

They say if you want Java than people will have to download it. But I know a bunch of people on modem connections, who don't care about special features. And they will just skip it. Do you really think web programmers will have to use more Microsoft code than Java? This is just another example of how Microsoft is using its power now that the court case is over.

[Amadkow]

Dang that is just Incredibly lame. I am sure that will cause quite an upset for webmaster who pages have a lot of java in them.

[Andy A.]

I have a feeling that many people will be quite upset with xp (for more then just this reason), and Microsoft will release 'XP SE' or something of that sort. It will have surport for java and all that, along with a less annoying registering method.

It really is silly that they would be doing this.

-Andy

[Kyle Fenton]

along with a less annoying registering method

Yeah right. It will be a 10000x more annoying registration. What they are doing in XP is that they are making a registration number on your computer. And you need to get on the internet, so secertly the operating system can send the regristration number to the microsoft web site. If you give your system software to another friend and they install it. Than Microsoft will know via the web and they will shut your friends system down. Talk about privacy!!!!!! Thats rediculiculus, it seems like this is just one of several things that Microsoft is going to do, just to get you to buy more of their products. Their making a system that you do not have complete control of.

I am sorry, that is why I never do anything Microsoft, except for Office.

[EddieMcD]

Well, if you give the software to a friend to copy, technically, that's piracy. Take a look at Napster.

All this is more proof that the biggest oxymoron in the world is Microsoft Works.

[Matt Leese]

There's a reason Microsoft is not including Java in XP. And that's because Sun told them to. When Sun settled its lawsuit with Microsoft over Microsoft's implementation of Java, Microsoft agreed to only ship products then shipping or in Beta with Java. XP apparently wasn't in Beta then so it doesn't get a copy of Java. It is however possible to download a JVM from Microsoft's website.

[Flair]

I just started building a website, and I am finally starting to use some javascript in it. I keep it small, for stuff like hoverbuttons, etc. but if XP isn't going to support java, then I might have to come up with another splash screen and redo the entire site without java. So that they could click on "for XP users". However, the site is VERY big, and it would take a lot of work to redo it. IS this just a rumor? or will it actually come to be? Becuase I don't want to have to redo my site.

-Hey just reply!

[Joe Ross]

Javascript is totally different than Java. IE will continue to provide javascript.

As a result of the setlement, Microsofte had to include the JVM version 1.1.4. the settlement said nothing about ever upgrading to the newer versions. As a result the JVM that M$ includes is quite old and slow. The latest version is 1.31 and is much better.

[Joel J]

Originally posted by Matt Leese
There's a reason Microsoft is not including Java in XP. And that's because Sun told them to. When Sun settled its lawsuit with Microsoft over Microsoft's implementation of Java, Microsoft agreed to only ship products then shipping or in Beta with Java. XP apparently wasn't in Beta then so it doesn't get a copy of Java. It is however possible to download a JVM from Microsoft's website.

Technically the agreement stated that Micro$oft could use J[ava] V[irtual] M[achine] v1.1.4 for seven years (starting in the year 2000). With this option, Micro$oft could have easily incorporated it within Windows XP and simply prompted its users to upgrade, allowing them to do so if they desired. Microsoft however, decided to stop including Java, as the settlement they reached last year prompted them to create a competitor to java, C#. Read the articles in the links below for more info...

Exclusion of Java Announced (ZDnet)
Micro$oft's Comments. (ZDnet)

[Nate Smith]

Originally posted by Kyle Fenton

What they are doing in XP is that they are making a registration number on your computer. And you need to get on the internet, so secertly the operating system can send the regristration number to the microsoft web site.

I just read an article on this whole thing in the Detroit Free Press, so here's my comments on it...being one of the people who ordered the Windows XP Preview, I have somewhat of a unique perspective...First, if you don't want to go on the internet to do it, you don't have to...there is an option to do the WPA (Windows Product Authorization) over the phone. But, it involves reading the person you talk to a 50-character code that shows up on your screen, and then they turn around and give you an 40-something character code to type in to authorize the software. As far as sharing the software and then having the other copies terminated, my understanding is that works through the Automatic product updates system, similar to the one included in Windows ME. Whatever calculations are done to originally determine the WPA code are done again, and sent as a system identifier to the Automatic Updates system. Also, the code that is created on your end is specific to the hardware of that computer, which means that if you did share it with somebody else, you wouldn't be able to use the same 40-character authorization code to authorize the software. Which means you would only be able to use it for X days(still TBD for the release version in October) before it would shut itself down. Curiously enough, this is the same technique that Autodesk uses on products like AutoCad, Inventor, and 3DS MAX to get you to register. Microsoft has also been using it in the 2000 and XP versions of Office. But as far as all that goes, like Eddie said, it would be considered piracy to share the software, just as it is now. Of course, somebody found a way to hack past the Office 2000 authorization system, so I'm guessing it's only a matter of time before somebody does with XP.

So, in a nutshell, here's my take on the whole thing...is it going to make people upset? Definitely (look at this thread for proof.) Is it simply Microsoft "flexing their muscles?" No, they're trying to cut down on the illegal distribution of their software, which they have every right to do. And the way they've decided to do it has been used by other companies in the past, but since all eyes have been on every move Microsoft makes lately, only now has it become an issue.

[Nate Smith]

Originally posted by Kyle Fenton
They say if you want Java than people will have to download it. But I know a bunch of people on modem connections, who don't care about special features. And they will just skip it.

Interestingly enough, it seems that this is only for clean installations of XP...here's a quote I found in one of the articles Joel posted...

From ZDNet
It is worth noting that this non-Java support issue really affects only clean installations of Windows XP. Systems built by OEMs will likely include the JVM (according to Microsoft). In addition, systems upgraded from previous versions of Windows will continue to include Java support.

From the sound of this, upgrades won't wipe out the existing Java support, and my guess is that for the time being, most major OEMs will include at least some version of the JVM for the sole reason that many of the computers being bought today are for people to get out on the Internet with, and until this new technology (Microsoft's .NET) is more widely accepted, they don't want people calling and complaining that they can't do this or that because their computer won't run the Java.

On a side note, as it was mentioned earlier, Microsoft can only distribute an old version of the JVM due to the terms of the settlement they reached with Sun. What is more advantageous from their standpoint, since they are billing XP as "a whole new Windows"...bundling obsolete software from somebody else, or integrating in support for their new software, that competes with that "somebody else?"

[Amadkow]

I wondering what hapens with the authentication code stuff if you change some of the hardware on your computer. Like change the video card in your computer. Will it think it is a diffrent computer and then shut down windows on the nex t update?

[Nate Smith]

Originally posted by Amadkow
I wondering what hapens with the authentication code stuff if you change some of the hardware on your computer. Like change the video card in your computer. Will it think it is a diffrent computer and then shut down windows on the nex t update?

There were issues with things such as this in earlier XP betas, but MS recently announced that they were relaxing what could be done without needing to reauthorize. Keep in mind that Windows will never be totally killed, rather you will just have to contact MS to re-authorize it. I'm sure if someone at MS punches the new code your computer has generated into their system, they can see what the change was. A single change, such as memory or a video card, shouldn't be an issue with them giving the OK to a new authorization code, but if the only thing the same is the hard drive, they might wonder...

[patrickrd]

I don't know anyone who is excited about XP coming out -- however, in a couple years it will be common to have it. Many computer manufactures already have made contracts with microsoft to ship XP with all systems that they produce.

During this period where socialist Microsoft attempts to release this piece of software, I think that Microsoft will have a period of about a year of increased vulnerability. The public will be more likely than ever to look at other alternatives -- and hopefully a third party (perhaps w/ a linux or unix kernal?) will come out with a realistic alternative to Windows. If not, then Microsoft will gain complete control over the software industry, and they will choose another sector of the economy to start monopolizing -- lets just hope they stay out of Mechanical Engineering

Patrick

[Kyle Fenton]

he public will be more likely than ever to look at other alternatives -- and hopefully a third party (perhaps w/ a linux or unix kernal?) will come out with a realistic alternative to Windows. If not, then Microsoft will gain complete control over the software industry, and they will choose another sector of the economy to start monopolizing

Mac OS X is based on a UNIX kernal called Darwin. This kernal is open source so pro users can manipulate and make better programs with an open source system. There were rumors of Mac OS X on an Intel Chip ( http://www.osxonintel.com/ ), but Apple knows that there G4 chip is 50% faster than even a 1.8 ghz Pentium Processor ( http://www.apple.com/g4/myth/ )

Liniux I think had is bright staring moment, but will not propser because major applications will never allowed their code to be exposed for people to copy and manpulate. Plus the complicated GUI and dull interface.

Mac OS X is now trying to phase in right now. But the phasing in process will take about a year for application makers to re-write the code to take advantage of the new robust system. The same thing will happen to Windows XP. Software, especially games and older software, will have to be re-writen. Hardware may also be affected, especially if the hardware you have is no longer supported by their manufacture. Microsoft even said, that if you machine orginally came with Windows 98 or 95 don't expect it to run on Windows XP.

So, you will probably not see to many Windows XP machines until the later part of next year.