2005 FRC Team Update 13

[Mr.G]

If you have been reading the Q&A system there have been many questions about this. I would like to see the robots only have to break the plane above the triangle with the base dimensions of the robot. This would be harder to enforce.

[Chris Hibner]

I have a REALLY big problem with this rule interpretation - especially coming this late.

Here is the original rule:

<G12> The purpose of the LOADING ZONE is to allow ROBOTS to quickly and safely receive TETRAS without interference while HUMAN PLAYERS and/or field attendants are in close proximity, and then return to play. The LOADING ZONE is not intended to serve as a “perpetual safety zone” to prevent interaction with opponent ROBOTS for the entire match. Tethers, tape measures, long extension arms, and other devices intended to contact the LOADING ZONE to maintain the “non-interference constraint” defined in <G15> while the ROBOT drives around the remainder of the field are against the spirit of the rule and will not be permitted. Such devices must be removed before the ROBOT will be permitted to play in the match. <end of rule>

The rule says to me that we should not have long arms, tape measure, or teathers that allow us to be in the loading zone when we are far away for the purpose of gaining an advantage due to the non-interference contraint. This rule says NOTHING about any 38x28 requirement.

Here is my problem: we designed our robot to require wheelie bars that fold out at the beginning of the match. These wheelie bars are not intended to gain an advantage from rule <G15> - they were designed to prevent the robot from tipping over. The problem is that it is nearly impossible for something within the 28x38 footprint to touch the loading zone since our wheelie bars contacting the side rail prevent us from getting close enough to touch the triangle. Our interpretation was that the wheelie bars to not constitute a tether, tape measure, or some other device to gain an advantage from rule <G15>.

If FIRST wants to make this type of interpretation, they need to do it at the beginning of the process - not once the robot is built and ready to ship.

[JVGazeley]

Thank goodness they've finally corrected the NYC Crate Arrival Date, we thought (and hoped) it meant 21st March rather than 21st Feb...

[Swan217]

Originally Posted by Chris Hibner

I have a REALLY big problem with this rule interpretation - especially coming this late.

If FIRST wants to make this type of interpretation, they need to do it at the beginning of the process - not once the robot is built and ready to ship.

This interpretation isn't going to help anybody. It's an overbearing limitation for the INTENT, which Chris is right in saying is so that the people on the field don't get hurt.

And nobody thinks about how the referees are hurt by this rule as well. As a ref, I REALLY don't feel like getting down on hands and knees to decide whether a tie wrap is touching the triangle. It is a distraction from other more important things the refs need to be looking for, and may even be more dangerous. "Well, the wheels are straddling the edges of the triangle, but that wire hanging down is touching it, but it's not within the 38"X28" dime-----" ::WHAM! Gets clobbered by arm while looking at wheels::

As a ref, I would like to say, "That robot's base is close enough to the loader. I don't care what is touching where, just as long as the arm doesn't fall over and kill me, like it nearly did LAST year."

[Rick]

I dont understand why every one is getting so upset. I'd like to see more people who are content with the rules, like me and Ogre, to reply with some positive reinforcement. FIRST got it right with the changing of the human player triangle from 36" a side to 48". This was a major problem at the UTC scrimage with scores that were in the 30's originally drop to below ten, or even zero.

Here is what I think FIRST means by the rule of loading zones. Get as close as you can to the loading zone safely, without knocking over the loader, without hitting a field attendant or referee. Then safely take the tetra off the loader while staying there. When you have it you can go score it. Also the reason to get close to the loader is to prevent a defensive robot from attacking you if you were say 10 feet off the triangle taking a tetra. If you get up in there and go through the motions of getting a tetra, that defensive robot will stay away.

The first set of regionals are are important for many reasons. We the players get a chance to see how the game is played and what it takes to win. FIRST gets to see how the matches flow (6 teams this year), how strict to be with penalties, and any other potential problems with RUNNING the event. We get to play, but FIRST has to run it.

I'm sure there aren't a bunch of rule makers sitting in a board room discussing "What rule can we change now to mess with the teams' heads?".

Lets all just sit back and enjoy the regionals!

[Yan Wang]

Originally Posted by Ricksta121

I dont understand why every one is getting so upset. I'd like to see more people who are content with the rules, like me and Ogre, to reply with some positive reinforcement. FIRST got it right with the changing of the human player triangle from 36" a side to 48". This was a major problem at the UTC scrimage with scores that were in the 30's originally drop to below ten, or even zero.

Here is what I think FIRST means by the rule of loading zones. Get as close as you can to the loading zone safely, without knocking over the loader, without hitting a field attendant or referee. Then safely take the tetra off the loader while staying there. When you have it you can go score it. Also the reason to get close to the loader is to prevent a defensive robot from attacking you if you were say 10 feet off the triangle taking a tetra. If you get up in there and go through the motions of getting a tetra, that defensive robot will stay away.

The first set of regionals are are important for many reasons. We the players get a chance to see how the game is played and what it takes to win. FIRST gets to see how the matches flow (6 teams this year), how strict to be with penalties, and any other potential problems with RUNNING the event. We get to play, but FIRST has to run it.

I'm sure there aren't a bunch of rule makers sitting in a board room discussing "What rule can we change now to mess with the teams' heads?".

Lets all just sit back and enjoy the regionals!

Why? Because if you look at the image I posted a few messages back, that robot in the picture is CLEARLY "in" the loading zone from a logical standpoint - it covers almost all the triangle and anyone looking at it would understand that it's "in" the zone and trying to get a tetra. It makes no sense why it wouldn't be. But I guess it is. I mean, is a judge going to lay down on the ground to check for contact when a robot assumes such a position? Heck, you can't even see under our robot that well.

But hey, I've got a simple solution. I'm going to get some brightly colored (non-green) string/rope (see http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...01&postcount=5) and tie two inch pieces to the front of the robot, and let it hang. Then when the front of the robot starts to cover the apex of the triangle, the string will touch it. And you know what, I don't see how this is any safer for the field attendant.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Yan Wang

But hey, I've got a simple solution. I'm going to get some brightly colored (non-green) string/rope (see http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...01&postcount=5) and tie two inch pieces to the front of the robot, and let it hang. Then when the front of the robot starts to cover the apex of the triangle, the string will touch it. And you know what, I don't see how this is any safer for the field attendant.

Go through the Q&A system and check yesterdays Answers. FIRST is allowing teams to use things like zipties to hang down to the floor and contact the loading zone triangle. String is always a concern for entanglement...

What first is trying to do is create a black (touching the loading zone triangle) and white (not touching the triangle) situation. How many games have been plagued by rules in the "GRAY" area.

Im sure any team that stradles the triangle as much as your picture will not even get a glance from a ref. They stated in the rules that your robot must make it very obvious(ie. by being right on top of it) you are in the loading zone before getting a tetra.

[Collmandoman]

but that's the whole point... what does a ziptie do?? if anything it adds weight to your robot.. it doesn't secure the safety of the field attendents..
This has been poorly thought through, and it's hard to argue otherwise. I believe there is either a miscommunication at FIRST or there is some intent of the rule that nobody has seen. I wouldn't be surprised to see the rule changed in the next update. back to class~

[Raul]

Originally Posted by Chris Hibner

I have a REALLY big problem with this rule interpretation - especially coming this late.

Here is the original rule:

<G12> The purpose of the LOADING ZONE is to allow ROBOTS to quickly and safely receive TETRAS without interference while HUMAN PLAYERS and/or field attendants are in close proximity, and then return to play. The LOADING ZONE is not intended to serve as a “perpetual safety zone” to prevent interaction with opponent ROBOTS for the entire match. Tethers, tape measures, long extension arms, and other devices intended to contact the LOADING ZONE to maintain the “non-interference constraint” defined in <G15> while the ROBOT drives around the remainder of the field are against the spirit of the rule and will not be permitted. Such devices must be removed before the ROBOT will be permitted to play in the match. <end of rule>

The rule says to me that we should not have long arms, tape measure, or teathers that allow us to be in the loading zone when we are far away for the purpose of gaining an advantage due to the non-interference contraint. This rule says NOTHING about any 38x28 requirement.

Here is my problem: we designed our robot to require wheelie bars that fold out at the beginning of the match. These wheelie bars are not intended to gain an advantage from rule <G15> - they were designed to prevent the robot from tipping over. The problem is that it is nearly impossible for something within the 28x38 footprint to touch the loading zone since our wheelie bars contacting the side rail prevent us from getting close enough to touch the triangle. Our interpretation was that the wheelie bars to not constitute a tether, tape measure, or some other device to gain an advantage from rule <G15>.

If FIRST wants to make this type of interpretation, they need to do it at the beginning of the process - not once the robot is built and ready to ship.

Chris,

I'm sorry I tend to disagree with you on this one. I interpret the original rule as being any extension out side the original starting position is not allowed to be used as the loading zone touching device. Otherwise, how do you set a limit on how far your wheelie bars can extend? And how does an inspector or referee interpret the intent of your wheelie bar? Robot design or strategy intent has to be taken out of the judgment of being in the zone. And as Lavery has often stated about his team following rules, an I agree with his philosophy, use a conservative interpretation of the rules or get clarification before proceeding with a design. Or if you choose to stretch the limits of the rule, have a back-up plan in case of an unfavorable judgment.

Why not simply pull your wheelie bar up when you need to get closer? Our robot also has wheelie bars, but do not rely on them to touch in our design.

I do agree with others that just having the 28x38 robot base hover over the triangle should be enough (too hard for refs to judge contact on low riding robots). I also agree that as a ref, we need an interpretation on robots that start tall, but go down to a 38x60 base.

[Dave Flowerday]

Originally Posted by Raul

I also agree that as a ref, we need an interpretation on robots that start tall, but go down to a 38x60 base.

That's an interesting problem with this rule. If FIRST indicates that a robot which "falls" to a 38x60 base then gets the 38x60 base to touch the loading zone with, how is that any different from a robot which "folds out" to have a similar size base, as I assume Chris' robot does? I find the two concepts to be pretty much the same thing, so based on their current ruling I'd say that the next logical answer is that robots which fall over cannot use their 38x60 base to touch, making it almost impossible to be "in" the loading zone. Now, common sense should take over here and say that that's ridiculous and pretty much dooms teams who went with that design. But if you allow teams to increase their loading zone contact by falling over at the start but not teams who deploy outriggers, isn't that a bit unfair?

[Kim Masi]

Can someone do me a favor and copy and paste the entire update in here please? my computer is acting really funny and i cant read the update.

thanks-
Kim

[Yan Wang]

 










  
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Special Notices 
Do NOT bring your radios to the Playing Fields for your matches. This year we are
using BANKED RADIOS (our own radios on a stanchion) in preparation for using 24
radio channels at the Championship in Atlanta, GA.

General Notices 
Documents and Updates
FIRST will provide important information to teams via the FIRST web site at:
http://www.usfirst.org/robotics/doc_updt.htm
Please check the team updates portion of the web site on a regular basis to insure that your team does
not miss critical information about the 2005 FIRST Robotics Competition.
Our schedule to publish Team Updates is:
• Tuesday by 5PM and Friday by 10AM. We work hard to meet these commitments.
Unexpected circumstances may, on occasions, delay their publication.
• Additional updates may be released if required.
Question & Answer System
Please review answers to questions in the Question & Answer System daily before submitting a
new question (see instructions below).
The Question & Answer System can be found at: http://www.usfirst.org/robotics/2005/qa.htm
1. Please ask one question at a time.
2. Questions are limited to 240 characters.
Find Q&A Answered After a certain date
Find an Individual Q&A ID
Leave Section set to All Enter question ID # in the ID field
Set Date to After Press Update Filter
Enter the appropriate date in the next field
Leave Search blank
Set Status to Answered
Press Update Filter

 










  
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Section 0 - Introduction
No changes.
Section 1 - Communication
No changes.
Section 2 – Team Organization
No changes.
Section 3 - The Arena

MODIFICATION of: The Human Player Loading Box
See Q&A Items of note below, #1715 and #1721.
Section 4 - The Game

IMPORTANT INFORMATION on: Being in the Loading Zone
See Q&A Items of note below, #1715 and #1721.
Section 5. The Robot (includes the Kit of Parts)
ROBOT

INFORMATION on: Robot Inspection
Remember that the Fix-It window following your robot shipping limits what you can do.
Other Fix-It windows have criteria associated with them as well.
As part of the inspection process, teams will be asked to sign the following pledge:
Team Compliance Statement
We, the Team Mentor, Team Captain and Team Inspector, attest by our signing
below, that our team’s robot was built after the 2005 Kickoff on January 8, 2005 and
in accordance with all of the 2005 FRC rules, including all Fix-It Window rules
(reference Section 5.3.3). We have conducted our own inspection and determined that
our robot satisfies all of the 2005 FRC rules for robot design.
Team Captain: _________________________

 










  
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Team Inspector: ________________________
Team Mentor: __________________________

PROTECT your: Kit Transmission
Please remember to lubricate your transmission to prolong its life… not to mention that it
runs much quieter.
KIT

MORE INFORMATION on: Fisher-Price motors
The 2003 Fisher-Price motor can be used in 2005.
The 2003 F-P motor is a Mabuchi, while the 2004 motor was made by Johnson Electric.
Both motors had the same 19-tooth pinion on them. However, the two motors'
performance data are slightly different:
o The Mabuchi is rated at 150W peak power. Stall torque is 0.383N-m.
o The Johnson is rated at 164W peak power. Stall torque is 0.400 N-m.
Compared to the 2005 Mabuchi motor (at 12V), the above motors are not as powerful as
it is (407W peak), whereas the 2005 motor at 6V is rated at 102W peak.

PICTURE of an: LED robot light (back)

 










  
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Section 6 – Robot Transportation
No changes.
Section 7 – At the Events
No changes.
Section 8 – The Tournament

IMPORTANT INFORMATION on: Match scheduling
In the game of Triple Play, because there are 6 teams on the field at once, the scheduling
of matches is significantly more difficult. In addition, in previous years we have noticed
that there have been cases where a team may not be on the field with one team at all, but
encounter another multiple times. In order to maximize your exposure to other teams, we
have implemented a new match-scheduling algorithm. While this algorithm has
significantly improved performance, it does allow some matches to be scheduled
relatively close together. There may be cases where your team has a match that is 12
minutes after the end your previous match. Please make sure your robot and drivers can
be ready to play in this time interval. Although 12 minutes may seem like a short time, if
you are fortunate enough to make it to the finals, you will have only 4 minutes to be ready
to play again. Also note that 12 minutes is a minimum. In general your recovery time
between matches will be much longer.
Section 9 – The Awards
No changes.
Section 10 - Scholarships
No changes.
FIRST Guidelines, Tips & Good Practices
No changes.

 










  
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E-Mail Blasts Sent Since Last Update
2/18/2005
Several of the Regional "Site Info" sections on the web have been updated since first being
posted. We have identified these in the Team Updates accordingly. Please note there may be
additional edits to "Site Info", so please read your Team Updates carefully!
Some regionals also have Pre-Order Lunch forms that need to be filled out and submitted by
the due dates given. These are found in the "Site Info" sections. You will want to make sure
you have checked through your regional’s "Site Info" carefully for these forms.
All "Site Info" documents are found under your regional’s listing at:
http://www.usfirst.org/robotics/2005/rgevents.htm
Please contact us at frcteams@usfirst.org if you have any questions.
Question & Answer Items of Note

ADDITIONAL INFORMATION on: Q&A #1715 and #1721
Text from #1715
Yes. After attending and receiving feedback from several scrimmages this past
weekend (2/19), we will allow robot-base appendages that are within and remain
within the 28" x 38" dimensions to contact the loading zone and be legal.
Text from #1721
Yes, however, it is important that it be clearly visible to the referees in order to avoid
receiving a penalty.
During the various scrimmages last weekend, it became clear that robots were having
difficulty getting in the loading zones and receiving and retrieving tetras without drawing
penalties. In order to make this more reasonable for teams, we have decided to broaden
the interpretation of the concept of the robot base, as mentioned in Q&A 978 and 1617.
The referees will consider any item contacting the loading zone triangle, that is
clearly visible and within the original 28” x 38” starting footprint, as part of the
robot base. It is very important, however, that it be clearly visible to a referee standing 5
or 10 feet away. An encoder wheel or caster that is under the chassis may not be visible,

 










  
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and as a result, may not prevent the team from receiving a penalty.
In addition, FIRST has decided to make the Human Player loading box larger in order to
give the Human Player more room to avoid robot arms or appendages while they are
loading the robot. This “box” will now be a triangle 48” on a side. Human Players are
encouraged to wear helmets if their robot presents an arm or appendage that overhangs
the outside of the field while it is receiving a tetra.
Finally, Human Players should use the following sequence when loading a tetra in order
to avoid a penalty according to rule <G27>:
1) Step into the loading box. To be in the box, part of both feet must on or over the
box border.
2) Load the tetra on the robot.
3) Clearly and decisively remove your hands from the tetra.
4) Step out of the loading box.
Other Items of Note

NEW SITE INFORMATION for: Several locations
Sacramento Regional – Lunch pre-ordering opportunity
• Now includes the order forms for pre-ordering lunches
New York City Regional – Crate arrival
• The crate arrival deadline has changed.
Philadelphia Regional - Lunch pre-ordering opportunity
• There is updated information regarding a lunch pre-ordering opportunity.
Pittsburgh Regional - Lunch pre-ordering opportunity
• There is updated information regarding a lunch pre-ordering opportunity.
Colorado Regional - Lunch pre-ordering opportunity
• There is updated information regarding a lunch pre-ordering opportunity.
For the links to all events, go to:
http://www.usfirst.org/robotics/2005/rgevents.htm
Teams attending these events should print and distribute the section to team members.

[Jeff Rodriguez]

Originally Posted by Collmandoman

but that's the whole point... what does a ziptie do?? if anything it adds weight to your robot.. it doesn't secure the safety of the field attendents..
This has been poorly thought through, and it's hard to argue otherwise. I believe there is either a miscommunication at FIRST or there is some intent of the rule that nobody has seen. I wouldn't be surprised to see the rule changed in the next update. back to class~

The zip tie will clearly show the referee that the robot is touching the loading zone and considered to be 'in' the loading zone.

The intent of the rule, as Rick stated, it to clearly define what is 'in' the loading zone, and what is not.

To be 'In' the loading zone: The referees will consider any item contacting the loading zone triangle, that is clearly visible and within the original 28” x 38” starting footprint, as part of the robot base.

It's as simple as that. You have to obey the rules.

[Paul Copioli]

I want everyone to know that I am fighting this battle separately with my "insider connections" at FIRST (very loose connections, by the way). My basic argument strategy is this:


1. We (FIRST) provided a kit chassis with a recommended configuration and really talked up how great it was for teams. This new interpretation of the rule pretty much makes the kitbot not touching the loading zone when the base is clearly over the loading zone. Is that the message FIRST wants to give teams.

2. A previously illegal kitbot can add a tie wrap hinging from the front center of the drive base and, as long as it can be seen, it now makes the bot legal. Is that the message FIRST wants to send?

3. Robots that use the unmodified kit design and want their wheels to touch the zone must now go into the zone offset, which is less safe than going in centered. Isn't safety one of the concerns?


I am sending FIRST pictures and examples to strengthen my case. This rule was pretty clear until the latest Q&A shenanigans and the latest update. This has taken a game that will be really exciting to a controversial game decided by rule interpretations.

-Paul

[Collmandoman]

well put paul~ thanks for the fight