YMTC: Redabot Loads Ten Tetras Without Moving

[Natchez]

You Make The Call (YMTC) is a series of situations where you are the official and make the call. Please reference specific rules when applicable. The results of YMTC are not official and are for educational purposes only.

It's the first match at the Magnolia Regional, Redabot creeps out of the starting blocks in autonomous mode and takes 15 seconds to get to the auto-loader. After autonomy, Redabot clearly straddles the red loading zone triangle, then places a pneumatically actuated foot onto the HDPE, then grabs a tetra and places the tetra in its storage bin. Redabot then pulls up its foot, waits for the field attendant to place a tetra on the auto-loader and repeats its foot-down--grab-tetra--foot-up sequence. Ten tetras later and without moving an inch, Redabot leaves the loading zone to go bulldoze its way around the field to place tetras.

Based on the 2005 Game Rules, YOU MAKE THE CALL!

[TLonghorns0593]

That is against the rules. The rules say you must back up 3 feet or so before returning to get another tetra.

[Natchez]

Everyone, sorry I did not post a poll. my browser was hanging up when I submitted the YMTC and would not proceed to the poll entry page. I tried a couple of times with no success and have not figured out how to add a poll to a post.

Originally Posted by TLonghorns0593

That is against the rules. The rules say you must back up 3 feet or so before returning to get another tetra.

Eric,

Please tell us where this rule is located. I've looked but I have not found a "back up 3 foot" rule or clarification. I have found G14 which says.

<G14> Field attendants will place TETRAS on the Tetra Loading Stations on the side of the field opposite the HUMAN PLAYERS (ie. the “automated” LOADING ZONE). At any time, a ROBOT may enter the corresponding LOADING ZONE, retrieve the TETRA from the Loading Station, and enter it into play. The HUMAN PLAYER does not have to leave the pressure pad sensor during this operation. When the TETRA is removed from the Loading Station and the ROBOT has left the LOADING ZONE, the field attendant will place a new TETRA on the Loading Station. Robots may not intentionally interfere with field attendant’s efforts to place TETRAS on the Loading Stations.

Thanks,
Lucien

[Rombus]

Originally Posted by TLonghorns0593

That is against the rules. The rules say you must back up 3 feet or so before returning to get another tetra.

I dont see what rule specifcly says 3 feet.

In any case, this has 2 major problems assoicated with it:
1. You assume the auto loading station attendand will be following that rule, For there own safty the may not reload untill they feel the bot is backed off enough
2. Time, i know this is a hypothetical situation, but the time required to do this would be more than what would be usefull in compition imho.

[Katie Reynolds]

Originally Posted by TLonghorns0593

That is against the rules. The rules say you must back up 3 feet or so before returning to get another tetra.

Eric,

Maybe you're thinking of <G21>?

<G21> A ROBOT cannot pin (inhibit the movement of another ROBOT while in contact with one or more field elements) for more than 10 seconds. If a ROBOT has been pinned for 10 seconds, the team with the pinning ROBOT will be told by the referee to release the pinned ROBOT and back away approximately 3 feet. Once the pinning ROBOT has backed off by 3 feet, it may again attempt to pin its opponent and, if successful, the 10 second count starts over. If a referee determines this rule to be violated, a 10-point penalty flag will be thrown for each violation.

[Wetzel]

The intent with making the robots back away from the loading station was for the safety of the field attendants. Having the robot straddle and have a foot go up and down would not satisfy the safety requirement, so no reload of the station.


Wetzel

[ChrisH]

It all depends on which standard you are using, which no doubt is the point of this YMTC.

If you use the "touching" standard from Q&A and the Updates then obviously Redabot is acting in a legal manner.

But the intent of this rule is difficult to determine. As quoted above, rule <G14> specifically states the robot must move into the loading one. This implies that the loading zone is a three dimensional space because you cannot be both "touching" and "in" unless you are inside the triangle. If the triangle was composed of surfaces, like a cardboard box, you can be both simultaneously. But since the triangle in this case is only 1/4" high and is solid to boot, this is rather difficult.

The basic confusion has been due to the conflicting terminology used by FIRST in formulating the rules and in answering questions. In some places they use terminology that obviously can only apply to 3 dimensional space. Other places they use terminology that might apply to either 3 dimensional space or 2 dimensional space. The more they try and straighten this out, the more confused people get because they continue the mixing of terms.

My original interpretation of the rules, back when we all "knew" the loading zone was 3 dimensional, was that Redabot would have to move back a short distance and then re-enter the loading zone to pick up additional tetras. This may still be an operational requirement because the humans loading the autoload stations are not obligated to do so until they feel it is safe. I personally would not feel safe being within reach of an active robot. So if I was the loader I would probably wait until Redabot had backed off enough so it couldn't clobber me, regardless of the position of it's little foot.

So Lucien, don't worry about not being able to post a poll. Those of us who have been following this would probably answer both ways anyway.

[Warren Boudreau]

While the rules treat the loading zone as a 2-dimensional entity. The field attendant is going to treat the ROBOT as a 3-dimensional entity that may take his/her head off if he/she gets too close to the loader while the robot is sitting there.

As long as the field attendant feels that there is a safety hazard, they are not obligated to refill the loader until that hazard is removed (i.e., you pull the robot away from the loading zone).

So, even though there isn't a rule about having to pull away from the loader, you might have to just to get the loader refilled.

[Greg Marra]

Assuming the attendant reloads the station, the robot would be acting in accordance with the rules as of Update #13.

Perhaps this is of greater importance for the human loading station, where valuable seconds can be cut off loading time.

[Petey]

The robot has clearly not left the loading zone. It has merely stopped being in contact with it.

This is like asking, if you are hanging from a pullup bar in your weight room, whether or not you are "in" the weight room. It is to be assumed that the loading zone extends upwards towards infinity over the surface area of the red triangle.

More importantly, I don't think any assistant would reload the station during that time.

--Petey

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by Petey

It is to be assumed that the loading zone extends upwards towards infinity over the surface area of the red triangle.

That would be a reasonable assumption.

In light of the Q&A answers and rule updates, though, it doesn't seem to be a correct assumption. I can only read the official rules now as meaning that the loading zone is the triangle, and being "in the loading zone" means touching the triangle.

I don't much like that interpretation, but it's apparently the one FIRST is establishing as correct.

[Don Wright]

IMHO, a lot of these YMTC are getting too much into the very minute specifics of every last detail of the rules the way they are written. And instead of being lawyers and trying to interpret them in every way possible, let's look at what the rule is trying to accomplish.

I believe the rule is there to keep the workers who are loading the stations from getting hurt by a robot. And it will be left up to the judgement of the worker. If they feel threatened that they might get injured even if the robot left the loading station, I would not expect them to risk their "life" (dramatically speaking) to reload a tetra.

So, if redabot is sitting there with their little foot entering and exiting the station (which I interpret it is doing by touching the red triangle instead of having most or all of the robot in the space above the red triangle) and is all safe and controlled, I don't think it is in violation of any rules.

On the other hand, if redabot's crazy, out of control, alliance partner, with it's 30 foot high arm grabs a tetra off the loading station, backs out of the loading zone completely, and is sitting there looking like it's almost going to tip over crashing down onto everything and everyone within 30 feet of it, I expect the worker to run away instead of reloading the station.

Anybody realize that instead of having a bunch of 15-20 foot robots in the center of the field like last year where if they tip over, they are pretty much away from spectators and other off field things like judges, tables, etc., we now have them at the edge of the field where a tip over towards the side of the field means tetras, arms, motors, claws, etc...all these things at the top of these robots will be near where a lot of people are sitting...namely...the first row of seats?

Sorry about my off-topic rant...

I think as long as redabot is nice and controlled and is not threatening the worker, it would be legal.

[Natchez]

Originally Posted by Petey

It is to be assumed that the loading zone extends upwards towards infinity over the surface area of the red triangle.

Petey, I believe that this is a bad assumption. If there is only one thing that this YMTC does, I hope that it is rule awareness about what being in the zone really means. Which, of course, I'm still not sure what it means

Originally Posted by Petey

More importantly, I don't think any assistant would reload the station during that time.

This has been brought up a few times but if the robot backed a trailer into the loading zone with just a simple finger that plucked the tetras over the "holders" then it would be very safe for the attendant. Actually, I considered making the YMTC be that a trailer that was not part of the original 28" x 38" base be on the HDPE (currently defined as not making a robot "in the zone"). Then having a foot touch down that was inside the 28" x 38" base. It got very confusing ... I'm still confused.

Lucien

[TLonghorns0593]

Sorry i guess i was thinking of the pinning rule while posting but
<G17> A ROBOT that has received a TETRA may not collect another TETRA until it leaves and then re-enters
the LOADING ZONE. A violation will result in a 10-point penalty, and the TETRA will not be SCORED.
The way I interpret that is you have to back up off of the loading zone and then re-enter. I don't think that just removing the object that touches the zone would count. I guess it will be up to the interpretaion of the judges to decide what is leaving the zone.

[slickguy2007]

Isn't their some rule saying that you aren't allowed to put a "foot" down onto the field?....


GO 1403!!!