"Load Bearing Surface"

[Natchez]

Originally Posted by dlavery

Lucien, I honestly don't know where you are trying to go with this. Within just a few paragraphs, you urge the referees to ignore rules violations unless they are so blatent that they cannot be ignored and adopt some completely undefined "neighborhood" policy for determining the robot/loading zone condition, yet then you admonish everyone that "rules are NOT to be broken."

I'm truly sorry if I conveyed that I was urging the referees to ignore the rules violations. I was simply predicting that the refs will not call most of the violations. This, I believe, will be for a number of reasons that is a thread unto itself but goes down the same line as why I don't call all of the fouls and walking violations in peewee basketball. Thoughts like, "they did not gain an advantage" or "let's not stop the flow of the game for a small foul" are going through my head during a game. Granted, I have not ref'ed a peewee game in a long time so things may have changed. Please allow me reiterate that I do not see this as an issue with the refs but with the spot in which they have been put by the rules. It was just a prediction of what will happen. With that said, as a team, we will stick to the rule as it is written and clarified and not adjust to the way that it is enforced if the two turn out to be different.

Off of the specific rule and onto "where I was trying to go with this," I was simply trying to say that if the rule and the enforcement turn out to be different then we are sending a wrong message to the FIRST community. The wrong message is that we, as a society, must not worry so much about the rules as much as the enforcement of the rules. This is a great time to remind everyone that I'm throwing pebbles here and not rocks ... I drive 63 in a 55 because I'm aware of the enforcement of the law while violating the law itself ... I've got another 5,389 rules that I routinely violate because I know the enforcement ... violating a few of them that start with "Thou shall" or "Thou shall not" might result in me residing in a place that I'd rather not be. It's true and am embarrassed to admit it!

The reason that I discuss societal values in the context of current rules is because "there is a lesson learned in everything we do." AND because I have an enormous respect for FIRST for the positive influence the program has on our youth and mentors. I hope to be part of the solutions that bring FIRST to become a more positive influence on the FIRST community. Trust me, I know that I'd be laughed out of the room if I was to trying to convey my "don't bend the rules" philosophy to a room full of high school football coaches. That's what makes FIRST so special ... we strive to create a society that our grandmothers would be proud.

Originally Posted by dlavery

Jason's remarks and quotes were right on target. There is no difference between the "loading zone" and "loading zone triangle." Specifically, refer to Section 4.2.1 of the Manual, Definitions: "LOADING ZONE – The triangular colored area on the floor at the sides of the field where robots may receive and/or retrieve TETRAS that are introduced into the game." You are trying to make a distinction between "loading zone" and "loading zone triangle" where there is no difference.

You are correct and touching is how many, if not most, of us read the rule. I was simply giving credence & sympathetic understanding to those who read it in a different light.

Originally Posted by dlavery

The comments regarding a baseball short stop being "in the neighborhood" are amusing but irrelevant. We are not playing baseball, and MLB rules do not apply. A single analogy with baseball was used to try to help clarify a single point of discussion with regard to the 2005 "Triple Play" rules. But everyone understands that is all that it was - a single analogy. Don't push it too hard, beyond its' intended use.

ALL of my comments are irrelevant if the rule is enforced as it is written. If this is the case, I will publicly applaud FIRST AND apologize for using everyone’s valuable white space and time.


Hope this clarifies my post,
Lucien

[Andy Baker]

Originally Posted by Natchez

I'm truly sorry if I conveyed that I was urging the referees to ignore the rules violations. ...(lots of stuff snipped).... If this is the case, I will publicly applaud FIRST AND apologize for using everyone’s valuable white space and time.
Hope this clarifies my post,
Lucien

Lucien,

You are bringing up an excellent discussion here and on other issues with the YMTC. With many of us being long-time, passionate FIRSTers, we all know that a new game brings new challenges, rules and changes.

One of the things that makes FIRST cool is that there are many brilliant people who are putting in their time to make FIRST great. As the case with typical brilliant people, they don't all think alike.

Since we have all of these changes from year to year and we have people who can think independently, we will see conflicts of opinions. You see this, and you try to raise issues early to see what these conflicts are. Some people escape from conflicts, others try to address them head on. You're a "head on" type of guy, and for that, I applaud you.

You may think that you are "using everyone's white space", but you are not. You are bringing up situations now that would have reared their ugly head later, when people (GDC, FIRST, referees) are not prepared to put together a unified answer. While your attention to this matter probably ruffled some feathers, it made us all aware of some gray areas that need to be closely looked at during the early weekends of Regional competition.

We now have a situation where many informed people will be looking at loading zone situations, seeing if things are being called consistently, and doing their best to touch the loading zone. Without your instigation to question the clarity of this issue, we would have many teams suprised by penalties during the early weeks of Regionals.

Thanks, Lucien.

Andy B.

[dlavery]

Originally Posted by Dzdconfusd

To all the partof this rule that really upset me I don't think has been truely addressed, Dave's comments above made me feel the need to point this out. Most of you seem to be talking more about the human player loading zone which isn't where I see the problem.

In Team update #8 on 2/4/04 FIRST added the following line to <G14> which in my opinion drastically changed the rules of the game:

If a robot touches a loading station tetra before it is in the LOADING ZONE, the offending alliance will be assessed a 10-point penalty and the tetra will not be scored.

Actually, I made no distinction between the automatic loading station and the manual loading station. My comments apply to both. I also do think that it is worth a re-read of Rule <G14>. In Update #2 on January 14, the rule was ammended to read:

<G14> Field attendants will place TETRAS on the Tetra Loading Stations on the side of the field opposite the HUMAN PLAYERS (i.e. the “automated” LOADING ZONE). A ROBOT must enter the corresponding LOADING ZONE, to retrieve the TETRA from the Loading Station, and enter it into play. The HUMAN PLAYER does not have to leave the pressure pad sensor during this operation. When the TETRA is removed from the Loading Station and the ROBOT has left the LOADING ZONE, the field attendant will place a new TETRA on the Loading Station at the first safe opportunity. Robots may not intentionally interfere with field attendant’s efforts to place TETRAS on the Loading Stations.

This update clarified the language in the orginal manual to make it clear that robots must enter the loading zone before retrieving a tetra. This did not change the basis of the original wording, but removed potential for mis-interpretation. The original wording ("At any time, a ROBOT may enter the corresponding loading zone to retrieve a tetra...") focused on the point that an alliance robot has an option to retrieve tetras from the automated loading stations (e.g. the use of "a ROBOT may enter the..."). But FIRST recognized that it could cause confusion when determining the temporal sequence of events, so issued the clarification. This was done very early in the process, in the first week after kick-off, so any impact to detailed robot designs should have been minimal.

In Update #8 on February 4, the following sentance was added: "If a robot touches a Loading Station tetra before it is in the LOADING ZONE, the offending alliance will be assessed a 10-point penalty and the tetra will not be scored." This update did not modify the rule, but simply stated the penalty associated with a violation of the rule that had been in place since January 14 (actually, since Kick-off and just clarified on 1/14). I don't see how this drastically changed the rules of the game.

Originally Posted by Ken Patton

I'm not sure how many teams it affects. It might not be catastrophic for any of us - we are all buying *really* visible zipties, maybe?

I bought a whole bag of nice bright day-glo orange ones at Home Depot.

Originally Posted by Andy Baker

One of the things that makes FIRST cool is that there are many brilliant people who are putting in their time to make FIRST great. As the case with typical brilliant people, they don't all think alike.

Andy -

The best part is that Lucien and I have known each other for the better part of 15 years, and we both DO think alike. And if that doesn't scare you, nothing ever will!

-dave

[Natchez]

Originally Posted by Andy Baker

... Without your instigation ... Thanks, Lucien.
Andy B.

Andy, thank you very much for the kind words.

Originally Posted by dlavery

... The best part is that Lucien and I have known each other for the better part of 15 years, and we both DO think alike. And if that doesn't scare you, nothing ever will!

Even though we might think alike, the two things Dave failed to mention are that he thinks a thousand times faster and ten thousand times more often than this Mississippi boy. As for Dave's ability to "set me straight" and to make me "explain myself", he has been doing this for about 15 years and I dearly appreciate it; it really makes me a better person and I consider him a mentor ... even though I'm going to roll his yard and leave 10,000 EMPTY Krispy Kreme boxes on his front lawn the next time I'm in D.C.

[dlavery]

Originally Posted by Natchez

... even though I'm going to roll his yard and leave 10,000 EMPTY Krispy Kreme boxes on his front lawn the next time I'm in D.C.

I still say that you owe me two more FULL boxes from a certain bet from two years ago...