Religion in Education

[evulish]

I think it's fine to discuss the Bible in school. I'm not saying that because I'm Christian, I'm saying that because it's a great piece of literature. Whether you believe in it or not, it's a powerful book just like many other works. It just happens to be a religious text. I guess it was not the best idea to have that question in extra credit unless it said something like "In the Christian religion" or something similar. And like Ken said, Dostoevsky was very Christian, and it's reflected in his writing.. so it's a hard thing to avoid if you're discussing the book. I can understand being offended by someone trying to push their Christian views on you, but if they're just being discussed, what's the big deal?

[KenWittlief]

Originally Posted by Adam Y.

Ummmm.... is it person or person's?? Also it would probably be pretty hard to figure out when the first humans started popping up just by using a mathematical model of growth.

if you atribute the existance of the human race to mutation from another species, then there would only be one orginal human at the head of our species tree.

Mutations are a singular extreemly rare event. The odds would be astromical against one species producing two mutations in the same lifespan, both of which were the same new species.

Which is a bit of a problem with evolution. If one 'copy' of a new species is produced by genetic mutation, then that creature (person) has no one of its own species to mate with.

The other part, calculating how long it would take to get from 1 person to our present (how many of us are there now?) 8 billion, we have a general idea what our population growth rate has been for the last 2 or 3 thousand years, and it is interesting to project it backwards. Even if you make assumptions (no near extinction events) it still puts a timeframe on our population growth. All Im saying is its an interesting mathematical and genetic question to explore.

[Andrew Y.]

I think its ok for teachers to bring up religion in some topics.

History and Lit are good places to use the Bible and whatnot

I am a Christian, but i do think it was wrong for the math teacher to do that, it gives a select group of students an advantage on the test. Dont understand how that fits in with math.....unless it was like, count the apple

[Raven_Writer]

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

Id be interested in knowing what the teacher was saying that upset RavenWriter when discussing Crime and punishment. Religious and biblical themes are an intergral part of the novels plot/story. I dont know how you could discuss the book and ignore that part of it?

It was the fact that she kept referencing the bible, and not making any other comparisons. There was no references to other religions that she made.

I just personally feel strongly that there shouldn't be religion brought into education...and having to sit there and listen to her talk about all this got me really upset.

[Wetzel]

Originally Posted by Raven_Writer

When I asked this, the teacher got a major attitude with me and this, and told me no, because of a bunch of reasons (I kind of tuned her out after she got an attitude).

If you ignored her when she was explaining why she was talking about it, how can you continue to complain about it?

Originally Posted by Raven_Writer

It was the fact that she kept referencing the bible, and not making any other comparisons. There was no references to other religions that she made.

There was no reference to Buddhism, because Buddhism played no part in Crime and Punishment. There was no reference to Islam, because Islam played no part in Crime and Punishment.

If you DON'T bring religion into education, you can not learn. Religion plays a major role in determining societal norms, and this was even greater in the past. If you do not discuss the context in which a book was written, then you can not understand the unwritten values that were assumed by the author.


KenWittlief: Speciation (a new species from old) is defined by reproductive isolation. If two things can mate and have fertile offspring, then they are not separate specie. Evolutionary genetics/Darwinian fitness is interesting intellectual stuff.

Wetzel

[evulish]

Originally Posted by Raven_Writer

It was the fact that she kept referencing the bible, and not making any other comparisons. There was no references to other religions that she made.

I just personally feel strongly that there shouldn't be religion brought into education...and having to sit there and listen to her talk about all this got me really upset.

Lots of great literary work has ties to Christianity and other religions. Fyodor Dostoevsky was Christian, he tied his beliefs into his writing. Why do you have a problem with talking about the relationship between his book and Christianity when you don't seem to have a problem reading a book with Christian ties? Where's the harm in discussing it, provided she isn't preaching it to you? It's just knowledge. Since it seems you aren't Christian, why not consider the bible just as literature? In fact, most English (HS and College) books I've seen usually contain parts of the bible. I guess I can't see how this is harmful or bad in any way.fffffffff

[Raven_Writer]

Originally Posted by Wetzel

If you ignored her when she was explaining why she was talking about it, how can you continue to complain about it?

There was no reference to Buddhism, because Buddhism played no part in Crime and Punishment. There was no reference to Islam, because Islam played no part in Crime and Punishment.

If you DON'T bring religion into education, you can not learn. Religion plays a major role in determining societal norms, and this was even greater in the past. If you do not discuss the context in which a book was written, then you can not understand the unwritten values that were assumed by the author...

I'm not, I was just giving the situations that brought up this thread, and people have made statements to where I still use that example.

I understand about the no other religions thing in C&P, but that's not exactly true either. I've noticed some connections between that and Satanism.

I'm not gonna touch the last paragraph...I'm not wanting this to become a flamewar or anything like that, I'm just wondering of other people's opinions.

Originally Posted by evulish

...Why do you have a problem with talking about the relationship between his book and Christianity when you don't seem to have a problem reading a book with Christian ties?...

The only problem I have with her discussion on it is when she keeps talking about it for 20+ minutes...like in church.

I haven't read the book, so thus I can't say that I do or don't have a problem reading it (I'm not a big fan of old-time [so to speak] books like this, so it's hard for me to read it).

I wish to ask that we do keep this more on track though, and not make it a direct attack on my way of viewing things. I just want to know the opinions of other's on if they think it's right, and to not try to prove me wrong.

[Wetzel]

Originally Posted by Raven_Writer

The only problem I have with her discussion on it is when she keeps talking about it for 20+ minutes...like in church.

A teacher talking about the same subject for 20+ minutes is fine if it relates to what they are supposed to be teaching. If your only problem is that she is talking to much at 20 minutes, just wait.

Just wait until you have a 2 hour 50 minute class for Sociology 101 with 300 other kids with a socialist teacher.

Wetzel

[Eugenia Gabrielov]

I find it interesting that this subject is brought up, but I'd like to give my own viewpoint as well. I'm Jewish, but I'm not very religious. I've gotten used to people trying to convert me in school or telling me that my soul will burn for all eternity. If this level of prejudice exists in the classroom, then it is not appropriate, and should be brought up first with the teacher and then with administrators.

First of all, I agree immensely with many points before. If it is a book, such as Crime and Punishment, with a large number of Christian references, then it is appropriate to discuss these references. I will say however, that if a teacher would handle it like church class, that while I would pay attention in class and finish the homework or discussion for what it was worth, the teacher would lose significant respect.

The final and most important thing I'd like to cite is that "religious harassment" is on a person-to-person basis. I am extremely sensitive about it because I've grown up in an environment where my religious beliefs aren't always respected. I have many friends of all faiths, and I have the utmost respect for their views on the world and enjoy learning about them. However, many of their views are differing from mine, and I feel personally that evolution should not be brought into public schools unless it is in a class geared towards the subject, and this class is not part of the required curriculum.

The item that worries me most is that while there are students in the class that are mature and have respect for other beliefs, and a teacher may be lecturing with intention to discuss it as a factor of the story, there are individuals in the class who do not have the maturity to differentiate between discussion and "holy truth". I have the greatest pity for those who can't learn to respect others religions and lifestyles, and a classroom should enforce respect and general knowledge, not blundering ignorance.

Thanks
- Genia

[Raven_Writer]

I do have respect for other religions, I have friends that are of many religions. It's not that I think what I believe is better than theirs, and that I can't have a conversation about religion with someone because me and my best friend do that a bit. In my view though, I don't see why my english teacher should bring up Christianity, and that only and make it seem like a church. No, she is not telling us to become a christian and all that, but I don't see how it's actually right to only show one side of things. As I've said before, there's also similarities between C&P and Satanism (I've read the Satanic Bible, and the Christian Bible, and I can make the similarities and such just by what the teacher says). I really hoped this wouldn't turn into an attack on me (which is what it's turning into), I just wanted peoples opinions.

The same goes with my friend (since her situation was the same in some ways). She also has respect for other religions...it isn't like she thinks her beliefs are superior to others.

[DarkJedi613]

First, no one's trying to "flame" you, we're just trying to understand what you're saying, but you don't seem to want to be specific, leaving me to believe that you're not sure what you think about what happened.

Anyway, from what you said, do you think it'd be ok if she talked about the references to Satanism and no Christianity?

How exactly is she making it seem like church? Discussing religion is very different from preaching it. And since "she is not telling us to become a christian and all that" then she isn't preaching it. I don't see how you can complain about her talking about the references to religion and things, when you didn't even read the book to know if it truly has a significance or not.

[Raven_Writer]

Originally Posted by DarkJedi613

First, no one's trying to "flame" you, we're just trying to understand what you're saying, but you don't seem to want to be specific, leaving me to believe that you're not sure what you think about what happened.

Anyway, from what you said, do you think it'd be ok if she talked about the references to Satanism and no Christianity?

How exactly is she making it seem like church? Discussing religion is very different from preaching it. And since "she is not telling us to become a christian and all that" then she isn't preaching it. I don't see how you can complain about her talking about the references to religion and things, when you didn't even read the book to know if it truly has a significance or not.

You're right, and I'm sorry. The reason why it seems vague is that no one is really asking questions that goes beyond what I've already said (to my knowledge...if there is any questions like that, let me know and I'll be glad to answer them).

I don't think it'd be okay if she only made refrences to Satanism. I don't think her teaching should be one sided though, when there are two sides (and yes...I do know that not everyone will read the Satanic Bible and such).

The way that I know (to my own knowledge) that it does have reference to Christianity, is that she kept saying that C&P has a lot of illusions to the bible.

Honestly, I never did say she was preaching it. And when I said about her making it feel like church, it is because in church [christian], all the priest talks about is Jesus this and Jesus that...which is what she was doing.

Lets forget about the C&P topic though, for a second. What about the other cases?

[Wetzel]

Originally Posted by Raven_Writer

Lets forget about the C&P topic though, for a second. What about the other cases?

My question to this is, do you think religion should be brought into public school teachings were it is not ment to be? If this had happened in a religion class, it would be ok (because you know, religion class talks about religion). But to be discussing a topic that has no relevance to the material presented, isn't that going a little to far?

Many of my math problems are sample problems. With a math problem, why shouldn't it reference something from a bestselling book?

I see no reason for religion to not be in public schools. I would argue that it is wrong to limit learning.

Wetzel

[Raven_Writer]

Originally Posted by Wetzel

Many of my math problems are sample problems. With a math problem, why shouldn't it reference something from a bestselling book?

I see no reason for religion to not be in public schools. I would argue that it is wrong to limit learning.

Wetzel

But for religion to be in public schools, don't you think it should be of every religion, and not just certain types?

What does Adam & Eve, Satan, etc... have anything to do with on the topic of math though? No matter how you look at it, it would require knowledge of that religion, and if it was a question that was required to be answered (as in the second case), it shouldn't be allowed.

[KenWittlief]

In math class, she was taking a test, one with an extra credit question. When she got to the question, it said something about the famous satan/apple/adam/eve incident.

maybe if you told us what the question actually was, we might better understand your concerns.

The US constitution says congress shall pass no laws regarding the establishment of religion

it does not say we shall have separation of church and state

and it does not say we shall have freedom from religion, as if religion were something to be shunned or avoided.

but some people would have us think that is the case.

The religious beliefs of the people in our nation and our world have a great deal to do with our history and culture. If you get upset everytime God or church or the bible is mentioned in school, maybe you need to figure out why its upsetting you?

If you have been led to believe that all references to religion or God are forbidden within the walls of public schools, you have been given incorrect information. If that is the way you thought it was suppose to be, then I would understand you being upset - thinking the teachers are breaking the rules

but from what you have told us so far, they are not breaking any rules.

Maybe you could be more specific if we are not seeing the whole picture.

BTW, when you said you didnt read the book, were you referring to C&P or the Bible?