Religion in Education

[DarkJedi613]

First, no one's trying to "flame" you, we're just trying to understand what you're saying, but you don't seem to want to be specific, leaving me to believe that you're not sure what you think about what happened.

Anyway, from what you said, do you think it'd be ok if she talked about the references to Satanism and no Christianity?

How exactly is she making it seem like church? Discussing religion is very different from preaching it. And since "she is not telling us to become a christian and all that" then she isn't preaching it. I don't see how you can complain about her talking about the references to religion and things, when you didn't even read the book to know if it truly has a significance or not.

[Raven_Writer]

Originally Posted by DarkJedi613

First, no one's trying to "flame" you, we're just trying to understand what you're saying, but you don't seem to want to be specific, leaving me to believe that you're not sure what you think about what happened.

Anyway, from what you said, do you think it'd be ok if she talked about the references to Satanism and no Christianity?

How exactly is she making it seem like church? Discussing religion is very different from preaching it. And since "she is not telling us to become a christian and all that" then she isn't preaching it. I don't see how you can complain about her talking about the references to religion and things, when you didn't even read the book to know if it truly has a significance or not.

You're right, and I'm sorry. The reason why it seems vague is that no one is really asking questions that goes beyond what I've already said (to my knowledge...if there is any questions like that, let me know and I'll be glad to answer them).

I don't think it'd be okay if she only made refrences to Satanism. I don't think her teaching should be one sided though, when there are two sides (and yes...I do know that not everyone will read the Satanic Bible and such).

The way that I know (to my own knowledge) that it does have reference to Christianity, is that she kept saying that C&P has a lot of illusions to the bible.

Honestly, I never did say she was preaching it. And when I said about her making it feel like church, it is because in church [christian], all the priest talks about is Jesus this and Jesus that...which is what she was doing.

Lets forget about the C&P topic though, for a second. What about the other cases?

[Wetzel]

Originally Posted by Raven_Writer

Lets forget about the C&P topic though, for a second. What about the other cases?

My question to this is, do you think religion should be brought into public school teachings were it is not ment to be? If this had happened in a religion class, it would be ok (because you know, religion class talks about religion). But to be discussing a topic that has no relevance to the material presented, isn't that going a little to far?

Many of my math problems are sample problems. With a math problem, why shouldn't it reference something from a bestselling book?

I see no reason for religion to not be in public schools. I would argue that it is wrong to limit learning.

Wetzel

[Raven_Writer]

Originally Posted by Wetzel

Many of my math problems are sample problems. With a math problem, why shouldn't it reference something from a bestselling book?

I see no reason for religion to not be in public schools. I would argue that it is wrong to limit learning.

Wetzel

But for religion to be in public schools, don't you think it should be of every religion, and not just certain types?

What does Adam & Eve, Satan, etc... have anything to do with on the topic of math though? No matter how you look at it, it would require knowledge of that religion, and if it was a question that was required to be answered (as in the second case), it shouldn't be allowed.

[KenWittlief]

In math class, she was taking a test, one with an extra credit question. When she got to the question, it said something about the famous satan/apple/adam/eve incident.

maybe if you told us what the question actually was, we might better understand your concerns.

The US constitution says congress shall pass no laws regarding the establishment of religion

it does not say we shall have separation of church and state

and it does not say we shall have freedom from religion, as if religion were something to be shunned or avoided.

but some people would have us think that is the case.

The religious beliefs of the people in our nation and our world have a great deal to do with our history and culture. If you get upset everytime God or church or the bible is mentioned in school, maybe you need to figure out why its upsetting you?

If you have been led to believe that all references to religion or God are forbidden within the walls of public schools, you have been given incorrect information. If that is the way you thought it was suppose to be, then I would understand you being upset - thinking the teachers are breaking the rules

but from what you have told us so far, they are not breaking any rules.

Maybe you could be more specific if we are not seeing the whole picture.

BTW, when you said you didnt read the book, were you referring to C&P or the Bible?

[Raven_Writer]

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

maybe if you told us what the question actually was, we might better understand your concerns.

The question is just simply, do you think that religion should be brought into education (given the examples I gave).

The US constitution says congress shall pass no laws regarding the establishment of religion

it does not say we shall have separation of church and state

and it does not say we shall have freedom from religion, as if religion were something to be shunned or avoided.

but some people would have us think that is the case.

Nowhere in the constitution does it contain anything relating to "seperation between church and state", correct. I've had this told to me over and over again...the seperation came with the establish and free exercise clauses.

The religious beliefs of the people in our nation and our world have a great deal to do with our history and culture. If you get upset everytime God or church or the bible is mentioned in school, maybe you need to figure out why its upsetting you?

I don't get upset everytime this happens...I get upset when there's only one side of the story.

If you have been led to believe that all references to religion or God are forbidden within the walls of public schools, you have been given incorrect information. If that is the way you thought it was suppose to be, then I would understand you being upset - thinking the teachers are breaking the rules

but from what you have told us so far, they are not breaking any rules.

Maybe you could be more specific if we are not seeing the whole picture.

Actually, I've been led to believe the opposite, but in my own view of education, religion should not be brought into discussion when it's not actually necessary because it is always a one-sided way of thinking, without any thought of other religions.

BTW, when you said you didnt read the book, were you referring to C&P or the Bible?

I was referring to C&P, the only way I did read it is by SparkNotes, and I didn't even read most of those. I've read a little bit of the bible, the rest I've learned through Christians.

Originally Posted by evulish

Like Wetzel said, the Bible is the best-selling book. Most people have heard of or know the story of Adam & Eve. You don't need to believe the religion to understand what the book said. How is it any different than asking "Who is the most famous Shakespearean couple?"

Yes, the Christian Bible is the best-selling book. I don't think you need to believe the religion either, but to ask who was the first couple on Earth is a bit unfair in a way, because not every religion believes that A&E were. Demonology says that Adam & Lilith (sp?) were, until Lilith betrayed Adam (and more to it...).

Anyone can argue the most famous Shakespearean couple also...it all depends on what you want to believe.

Originally Posted by evulish

Maybe you can ask your teacher to add books to the curriculum if you want some literature about different religions (I think that religions should be taught not preached in schools) (these are all for different grades and reading levels)
The Fountainhead (Atheism)
Night by Elie Wiesel (Judaism)
Nectar in a Sieve (Hinduism)
Ali and Nino (Islamic)

If I had any hope of that being possible, I would. But for two reasons it wouldn't work:

1) It's AP English...and she only follows that cirriculum, and nothing else.
2) The school board has to approve the material (to the best of my knowledge), and the rest of the English department. And since everyone is Christian on the board, they wouldn't allow Atheism or Islamic books to be brought in (nothing against Christians, just the school board since they are like that). Also, I know for the Islamic book, it'll just get destroyed (my high school is very racist).

[Eugenia Gabrielov]

With all due respect to you involved, this is turning into an argument over who is right and who is wrong, rather than the open discussion it was intended to be.

It seems that a lot of the reasons aren't explained well, or maybe I just missed something. I agree with a few of you that religion is a part of history, but I have a fear that the change in curriculum would be misrespresented in our current school systems. I know for a fact that there are teachers I wouldn't want to learn about various religions from simply because of bias.

A new curriculum may include books that cite information about various faiths, but on the same track, how will it change understanding and tolerance and make the idea welcome? The truth with religion in public schools is that no matter which way you choose to represent religion, there will be a huge amount of dissent from any party.

In my opinion, it is changing that dissent into acceptance on the family's part that is important, but a school cannot just change a family. It's possible, but hardly feasible. While such changes in curriculum are the ideal, I have a feeling that RavenWriter, among others, are looking for a more immediate and usable solution to the issue of religious education.

Thanks,
Genia

[Raven_Writer]

Originally Posted by Eugenia Gabrielov

With all due respect to you involved, this is turning into an argument over who is right and who is wrong, rather than the open discussion it was intended to be.

Well, atleast someone else is trying to keep this on the right track...thanks.

It seems that a lot of the reasons aren't explained well, or maybe I just missed something. I agree with a few of you that religion is a part of history, but I have a fear that the change in curriculum would be misrespresented in our current school systems. I know for a fact that there are teachers I wouldn't want to learn about various religions from simply because of bias.

Well, it is known for a fact that most historical events have happened because of history. I do agree that a change would be misrepresented, and that there are biased teachers when it comes to religion (my AP Gov. teacher is one). I think this is where the main problem lies.

A new curriculum may include books that cite information about various faiths, but on the same track, how will it change understanding and tolerance and make the idea welcome? The truth with religion in public schools is that no matter which way you choose to represent religion, there will be a huge amount of dissent from any party.

Really, if you think about it, if you actually wanted to learn about another religion...it'd be wiser to do it on your own instead of through the school. The school will always try to please the majority (which is usually of Christian decent), so then that means that Athiests would have to sit through a class that they believe they shouldn't be in, but are required to in order to graduate (assuming it goes this way...don't make any remarks on this situation).

In my opinion, it is changing that dissent into acceptance on the family's part that is important, but a school cannot just change a family. It's possible, but hardly feasible. While such changes in curriculum are the ideal, I have a feeling that RavenWriter, among others, are looking for a more immediate and usable solution to the issue of religious education.

Thanks,
Genia

This pretty much sums up what I haven't been able to say honestly.

Please, in respect to this thread, lets stay on track and not turn this into a "I'm-right-your-wrong" thread as Genia pointed out. I think that this can be a very useful thread if the discussion is right.

[Wetzel]

Originally Posted by Raven_Writer

Please, in respect to this thread, lets stay on track and not turn this into a "I'm-right-your-wrong" thread as Genia pointed out. I think that this can be a very useful thread if the discussion is right.

You asked us to share our opinion if this is right. The only example you gave with any real information was about Crime and Punishment, so that was the one I addressed. As far as drawing comparisons between Satenism and Crime and Punishment, I'm rather interested in how Satenism has an impact upon the book.

Originally Posted by Raven_Writer

What does Adam & Eve, Satan, etc... have anything to do with on the topic of math though? No matter how you look at it, it would require knowledge of that religion.

I'll second Kens call for more information regarding the math question. I get asked questions all the time about subjects that I've only heard about in passing. Logging, tennis, invoices, and many other things. The point about them is that they merely serve to illustrate the use of a math concept. The same goes for my Biology classes, and my current teacher LOVES those types of questions.

It the question required an intimate knowledge of Genesis, then it is likely an unfair question. If it is just a vehicle for a concept, then no problem.

Originally Posted by Raven_Writer

there are biased teachers when it comes to religion

Do you think there are unbiased teachers when it comes to anything? By the very nature of individuality, each individual has an inherent and undeniable bias towards everything. Some people have large and obvious biases, others have theirs hidden, but everyone has them.


It is also my opinion that you should not entrust your personal growth and learning to anyone else. Learn in school, learn from others, but also learn on your own. Read varied sources on different things. Love to learn and you will go far.

Wetzel

[Raven_Writer]

I'm guessing that the "who's right" isn't going to end...I respect everyone's views on this, but lets just not try to change the views...

And in response to Wetzel:

Originally Posted by Wetzel

You asked us to share our opinion if this is right. The only example you gave with any real information was about Crime and Punishment, so that was the one I addressed. As far as drawing comparisons between Satenism and Crime and Punishment, I'm rather interested in how Satenism has an impact upon the book.

I did ask to share your opinion, but the thread became a war basically between our own view points...which is what I didn't want to happen.

Satanism didn't have an impact on the book, and I never claimed it did...I just said there's ressemblences (sp?) between Satanism & C&P.

I'll second Kens call for more information regarding the math question. I get asked questions all the time about subjects that I've only heard about in passing. Logging, tennis, invoices, and many other things. The point about them is that they merely serve to illustrate the use of a math concept. The same goes for my Biology classes, and my current teacher LOVES those types of questions.

I cannot give any more information about the math problem, since I did not take the test or anything...it's just what my friend told me (I do remember the question very vaguely though...since I had that same class last year).

You probably aren't very strong in supporting a seperation between those and math, biology, or any other classes. I am, however, that way.

Do you think there are unbiased teachers when it comes to anything? By the very nature of individuality, each individual has an inherent and undeniable bias towards everything. Some people have large and obvious biases, others have theirs hidden, but everyone has them.

No, I don't think there's ever a completely unbiased teacher. And I agree with you, everyone is biased in some matter.

It is also my opinion that you should not entrust your personal growth and learning to anyone else. Learn in school, learn from others, but also learn on your own. Read varied sources on different things. Love to learn and you will go far.

I entrust the growth of my knowledge to certain few...the rest I obtain on my own free will.

** If anyone wishes to continue this discussion anymore, please PM me...I really wish to keep this more on track and keep it's origional intentions **

[Katy]

In my AP English class, we're reading "Crime and Punishment" (Part I to be exact). During class, my teacher started bringing up a lot of references to Christianity. After about 20 minutes of listening to all these references, I asked the teacher to politely stop doing it (by raising my hand and whatnot). When I asked this, the teacher got a major attitude with me and this, and told me no, because of a bunch of reasons (I kind of tuned her out after she got an attitude).

Alright well honestly for starters I doubt any of us have the ability to change any sort of curriculum mid-class. On the practical point what would the teacher do even if she did want to stop? End class? Make up a new lesson plan on the spot? She probably got partly mad because that is an awfully difficult request. I also think personally that it is a bit tactless to argue something does not exist or is not a major part of book when you haven't read the book.

I am guessing...and I will freely admit the word guessing here...that the matches between the Satanic bible and Crime and Punishment can be attributed to the idea that the Satanic Bible probably has many references to the Christian Bible. Reactionary books have a lot in common with the things they react to. Sounds like a fascinating idea though...books/movies with Christian influences viewed through the Satanic Bible....*throws The Scarlet Letter, The Chronicles of Narnia, The Lord of The Rings, The Once and Future King and several other stacks of books in* If that was a class I would so take it.

For your math thing I do not quite understand how that got in there but really I do not understand an awful lot of that story. Skipping that to the computer class...I think it is probably unfair to name the rest of the class "ignorant" if the entire goal of this is a flameless friendly thoughtful conversation.

and to no suprise she lost (the people in class are rather ignorant and such....

It would have been nice if it had said "in the Christian/Jewish/Islamic traditions" but I really think there is not much to argue against unless you wrote down "I believe in evolution" or two names according to another religion and your teacher marked it wrong. I think that freedom of religion allows people to write whatever they like in that space and just keeps a teacher from marking it as wrong...as a side note a rather dumb question or a freebie however you like to look at it. You do probably have to answer the question though according to your knowledge of the world...blank spaces are always blank spaces and I can't see how you could get credit for that. I have to ask how that came up in computer science class though.

[evulish]

Originally Posted by Raven_Writer

But for religion to be in public schools, don't you think it should be of every religion, and not just certain types?

What does Adam & Eve, Satan, etc... have anything to do with on the topic of math though? No matter how you look at it, it would require knowledge of that religion, and if it was a question that was required to be answered (as in the second case), it shouldn't be allowed.

Like Wetzel said, the Bible is the best-selling book. Most people have heard of or know the story of Adam & Eve. You don't need to believe the religion to understand what the book said. How is it any different than asking "Who is the most famous Shakespearean couple?"

Maybe you can ask your teacher to add books to the curriculum if you want some literature about different religions (I think that religions should be taught not preached in schools) (these are all for different grades and reading levels)
The Fountainhead (Atheism)
Night by Elie Wiesel (Judaism)
Nectar in a Sieve (Hinduism)
Ali and Nino (Islamic)

[KenWittlief]

It would be easy to get lost here in the definition of the words 'tolerance' and 'acceptance'.

I only intended to point out that people often say one when they mean the other.

After the attacks on sept 11, the president and others went on national TV pleading for religious tolerance (by americans towards american muslims) and at the same time they repeatedly stated that Islam is a religion of peace.

If we are suppose to be tolerant of other peoples beliefs, then it doenst matter if their beliefs are peacefull, good, positive... From my way of looking at it, we tolerate people when we dont agree with them, when we are at odds with them

if there is no conflict or controversy, then tolerance is not required, because there is no issue there.

Im not sure I understand your example of WW2 and Germany. As soon as Germany invaded Poland, a full scale war was waged, most nations took sides and did everything they could to win the conflict.

And I dont think anyone knew what was really happening to the jewish people inside the borders controlled by Germany. Its not that anyone tolerated or accepted what they were doing, it was done in secret.

When american troops stumbled across the concentrations camps (my father was in Pattons 3rd army) they were in shock. They had no idea those things were going on until they started finding the camps.

going back to the topic of this thread, it seems like at least some of the examples given by RavenWriter, the student in the class would not tolerate religion even being discussed, or used in any context on test questions.