Highest Seed not Chosen for Finals

[Travis Hoffman]

We were 11th in our division at Epcot in 2001 but were overlooked. Turns out a few of the teams who failed to pick us could have used a reliable big ball scorer, something we had proven to be throughout the competition. 'Tis a pity. But yes, it happens, and ya just have to deal with it. There'll be other days when you seed low, you do get picked, and you help your alliance achieve success in the elims.

Based mainly upon what happened during the 2001 season, 48 started to reach out and try to be a more helpful and well known team in 2002. We're still working on that....

[RoboMom]

Originally Posted by Cory

Back in 2002 at nationals we were seeded 11th in Einstein and didn't get picked.

The last picking team was seed #10.

We lost our last match like 52-50 to 16... we would have been the #1 or #2 seed had we won

I was with a team in 2002,that was on a winning regional alliance, that was 12th seed at Epcot with an almost flawless performance and didn't get picked. That was a huge learning experience year. We watched in amazement as robots were picked that were really low in the seedings (high numbers). It was like a bolt of lightening hitting that year.

There is so much more to this than how good your robot is. It's about people knowing how good your robot is. Who actually saw your robot performing? It's about whether your team is easy to work with. It's about how you are perceived. It's not always fair. It is like life.

[ajlapp]

just my opinion, but i personally do not put any faith in seeded position.

seeding relies almost exclusively on your partners, especially with so many penalty possibilities. if you have less than perfect partners for many matches than you may seed low, even though you are exceptional. on the opposite side many teams who seed high often get there on the backs of other good robots.

we rely solely on our scouting and knowledge of robots to choose complimentary partners, whether they are seeded first or last. if you are a good bot and end up seeded in the middle, but don't get picked, its most likely that people don't know you, didn't see you perform at your best regularly, or don't need your particular skill set.

[team222badbrad]

Well here are a few things I think are common in Alliance Picking:

Lower numbered teams usually pick lower numbered teams.
Rookies usually pick rookies.
Teams that know local teams or have "family" teams usually pick their local friends or local "family".
When I say family; I mean teams that have branched off of one certain team.
For example my team branched off of one team that had several high schools involved way back in the years of FIRST and now most of these high schools have their own team.
Family teams can also mean teams that have mentored a certain team for some time.

Remember that just because your team could have placed 8th does not mean that a team ranked lower than you could have placed 1st.

Our team has also been subject to not getting picked even though we thought we did well, however, this is not really the case for us anymore.

[Madison]

Originally Posted by Rick TYler

Still, at least eight robots seeded lower than us were chosen. Is this unusual, or Just the Way Things Are? Thanks.

I was in the stands hoping that someone would have the good sense to replace an alliance partner with your robot. A handful of alliances at the event would've been well served to replace the weakest robot of the three after embarrassing, devastating losses.

My team was also exceptionally disappointed to have been overlooked, particularly since the robot was running very well and had been continually improving throughout the end of Friday and all through Saturday. In the end, however, it really is just the way these things go. It's not a reflection of the ability of our robots to compete as much as it is a reflection of how poorly teams can be in evaluating a team's performance -- if that's where their priorities lie.

I've noticed in the last two years of competing here in the Pacific Northwest that FIRST is still relatively unsophisticated here. Everything about the teams, robots, and competition is of lower caliber than what I was used to seeing at home. Teams don't scout as vigorously, don't design as elaborately, and don't interact nearly as much. It's disappointing, honestly.

All of that said, it was nice to meet you, Rick. Hopefully, we can do something to change the bad and improve upon the good and next year, we'll both be doing the choosing rather than waiting to be chosen.

[KenWittlief]

the alliance picking proceedure is very fast and its hard for the team captains to keep track of whats going on

also, some teams dont expect to make it to the top 8, and do very little scouting.

[Chris Fultz]

I think many of the reasons listed here are good, but our selection process is based on our scouting, not ranking. There are so many variables in the ranking that are totally outside of a teams control.

We look at indivudual robot performance and how it would fit with our robot as a team. What is a good fit for us might be a terrible fit for another robot.

I also think as you get to the tougher regionals and to the Championships, the selection is also influenced on having a solid reputation to perform, and on how well you have performed what you say you can do.

[Kirk Stankiewcz]

We were seeded 22 at the Hartford UTC Regional, and a Rookie to boot. We WERE chosen as an alliance partner in the quarter finals. It was a thrill and an honor!

Our machine was very dependable, it worked 14 out of 14 times. As rookies, we just had to improve our driving and strategy, which we did by taking cues from our alliance partners.

We scored an average of 22 pts per round, only 3 points from the #1 robot.

For a veteran team to choose us, a rookie team, was an honor.

Kirk Stankiewicz
Mentor
Team 1524

[Steve W]

Ranking is not a good science to tell of ones ability. At the end of day 1 in Pittsburgh team 63 was ranked 16/30. The fact was that they had a lot of problems and really only moved once. They came to every match and tried all competition to get going. They knew that they were broken and even removed themselves from the pool for elims. I am not sure of the final ranking but it shows that ranking cannot be the prime way to chose.

Promotion of your team is also VERY important. Make others know that you are there and how good your robot is. Show off all of your strengths and how you could help the alliance. To do this you have to have had good scouting yourself

[TimCraig]

In our very first competition we made a concentrated effort in the last rounds to move up to 16th so we'd get picked into an alliance. We weren't.

Having watched a number of alliance selections, it's pretty obvious that most teams don't do much of a job of scouting or even have a plan. The alliance captain is up there stumbling around listening to numbers shouted from the crowd to make a choice instead of having a ranked list of teams to chose from.

[ZZII 527]

We were ranked 16th at BAE after winning our last five straight and weren't picked. Some people have theories that it was because we were never in the pits to talk with potential pickers because we never had to fix anything. I think a lot of alliances were looking for defensive bots from lower in the list. We have no reason to complain, though, because Team 562 was ranked 12th and wasn't picked. They did get in as a hot swap, though, which is good because they definitely deserved it.

[dan 322]

With a good scouting team, final position after top 8 is meaningless. I've often seen bots at 10 or 11 that cant do anything but just had good pairings all weekend. And if your real good at scouting you might even pick a bottom 10 robot if you know they had fixed a problem or had good reason to be there. Team 66 picked us last year when we were in the 40's I believe and we went on to win the GLR. They knew we had poor alliance partners and some mechanical problems that we had fixed. GOOD scouting is the key.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Steve W

Ranking is not a good science to tell of ones ability. At the end of day 1 in Pittsburgh team 63 was ranked 16/30. The fact was that they had a lot of problems and really only moved once. They came to every match and tried all competition to get going. They knew that they were broken and even removed themselves from the pool for elims. I am not sure of the final ranking but it shows that ranking cannot be the prime way to chose.

Promotion of your team is also VERY important. Make others know that you are there and how good your robot is. Show off all of your strengths and how you could help the alliance. To do this you have to have had good scouting yourself

Steve, your post brings up something I hadn't given any thought before.

Team 63 knew they were broken and couldnt compete. When you say the eliminated themselves from the finals, do you mean that they told everyone not to pick them?

Say they stay in 16th place on Saturday, and become the highest seeded unpicked team. Say alliance x wants to replace one of their robots, can a team tell FIRST they're broken, not to replace the other robot with them, and move on to the next highest ranked team after them? Or would the alliance receive team 63 no matter what?

[Brandon Holley]

At the 2002 nationals, Team 11 finished 9th in galileo and wasn't picked

[OZ_341]

In 2001 at EPCOT, we were 10th in a Division of ~80.

We also had the highest match score of the day. We were in 4th-6th place most of the 2 days.
No one picked us. (We had no noticeable image or Rep.)

From that day forward I pledged to make our team more noticeable.