AZ Regionals: Incorrect Scoring?

[devicenull]

There are some problems with that system. The major one we noticed at UTC is that we were up against ourselves a few times.. They would display the scores, and the red and blue alliances would be the same. They should fix the buzzers sounding in the middle of the match.. I can't see any reason why they should.

[Mike Hendricks]

I'm not 100% sure on this (but lets just say 99.9%) but FIRST isnt using TacOPs this year (as they have in previous years) ..

The sounds of Windows XP playing throughout the arena (TacOPs ran on freebsd), and the numberous problems they've had (Sac had trouble with finals selection also). When I was watching the FL regional, they also had a problem with the arena computer (kinda funny, caused like a 10 minute delay). Lets not forget the real time scoring. The only time I saw real time scoring was in the FL webcast, and it was only there for about 2 matches.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is, we shold be respectful to FIRST, and allow them to deal with the scoring problems .. keeping in mind FIRST isnt just about robots. Getting mad at the officals for scoring problems probally wont help. If you're worried about your rank for the alliance selections, I wouldnt. The best robots will be picked for the final matches (1038 and 175 - 4th ranked alliance on Curie in the 04 CMP, picked us .. ranked 52 out of 73, and we went on to win the division) Pure evidence that ranks done matter.

With that said, I think it would be wise for FIRST to have the scoring system/arena computer fixed .. since they probally payed a pretty penny (and we dont see "Hatch Technologies" as a sponser) for that custom system, it might as well work right

[ArmoredFairy698]

Originally Posted by PhatMike

I guess the point I'm trying to make is, we shold be respectful to FIRST, and allow them to deal with the scoring problems .. keeping in mind FIRST isnt just about robots. Getting mad at the officals for scoring problems probally wont help. If you're worried about your rank for the alliance selections, I wouldnt. The best robots will be picked for the final matches (1038 and 175 - 4th ranked alliance on Curie in the 04 CMP, picked us .. ranked 52 out of 73, and we went on to win the division) Pure evidence that ranks done matter.

You are right, and I have the highest respect for FIRST and all that they do. FIRST isn't just about robots, but I still cannot just bypass all of this without just the slightest hint of dissappointment. I know we lost, and I am perfectly fine with that, but I do want to just express that my original post was more a word of advice to other teams to be careful and keep an eye on scores...as replying posts have proved, we aren't the only team experiencing scoring issues. Please, please don't misunderstand me. Without FIRST, we wouldn't have any of this...without FIRST, we wouldn't have these forums to post in, we wouldn't have that availability to build robots, and we wouldn't be able to compete. FIRST is the #1 best thing that has ever happened to me to help me advance my future and career, but I just want other teams to know that the scoring isn't perfect, so players beware. Please, enjoy your regional competitions, enjoy the nationals, and if you are involved in FIRST robotics, pat yourself on the back! You are one of a select group of us that have these opportunities, and we are the future of engineering. It makes me proud to stand beside each of you out there, knowing that my ideas count for something greater, and a better future for all of us. So, thanks is in order to FIRST, and we will continue to do our best to catch mistakes and errors, just as they have for us, whether it be in robot inspection, in competition, or just in working throughout build season.

Thank you to all the teams out there that have helped in any way, your support has already fixed so many issues!!

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by PhatMike

I'm not 100% sure on this (but lets just say 99.9%) but FIRST isnt using TacOPs this year (as they have in previous years) ..

The sounds of Windows XP playing throughout the arena (TacOPs ran on freebsd), and the numberous problems they've had (Sac had trouble with finals selection also). When I was watching the FL regional, they also had a problem with the arena computer (kinda funny, caused like a 10 minute delay). Lets not forget the real time scoring. The only time I saw real time scoring was in the FL webcast, and it was only there for about 2 matches.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is, we shold be respectful to FIRST, and allow them to deal with the scoring problems .. keeping in mind FIRST isnt just about robots. Getting mad at the officals for scoring problems probally wont help. If you're worried about your rank for the alliance selections, I wouldnt. The best robots will be picked for the final matches (1038 and 175 - 4th ranked alliance on Curie in the 04 CMP, picked us .. ranked 52 out of 73, and we went on to win the division) Pure evidence that ranks done matter.

With that said, I think it would be wise for FIRST to have the scoring system/arena computer fixed .. since they probally payed a pretty penny (and we dont see "Hatch Technologies" as a sponser) for that custom system, it might as well work right

Ranks most certainly do matter. If a team should be ranked #1 and they end up ranked #4 or something, then it's not a good thing. They even matter if you're not in the top ranks. When #14 or #15 ranked teams end up picking alliances, they often have poor scouting and end up picking the higher ranked team they can find. When it comes down to it, though, teams and their sponsors are also investing a pretty penny in this program. They deserve a well run event without all these glitches and problems.

[IMDWalrus]

Originally Posted by devicenull

There are some problems with that system. The major one we noticed at UTC is that we were up against ourselves a few times.. They would display the scores, and the red and blue alliances would be the same. They should fix the buzzers sounding in the middle of the match.. I can't see any reason why they should.

Not sure if this is the same issue or not, but GLR had problems with the end match buzzer as well. The sound effect wouldn't play, leaving the announcers to make their own "bzzzt!" noise or to wait for it to trigger.

This might have been related to the timer, though; the match timer was about five seconds fast for most of the competition.

We're going to have to keep an eye on this one next week. If anything weird happens at Detroit, it should be noticed by someone - lots of established teams there, and Paul and Dave emceeing if memory serves - but being a bit paranoid about it can't hurt.

[sanddrag]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

When it comes down to it, though, teams and their sponsors are also investing a pretty penny in this program.

IMHO you hit the nail on the head here. I was reluctant to post at all at first, but now that I think more about it, I agree with Kevin here. We can sit back all day and say "oh it's new" or "their trying hard" or "it has some glitches" or "they'll get it fixed soon" but the bottom line is we are customers of FIRST The first rule of business is that the customer is always right. You can say FIRST is not a business but in the end we pay them money and they provide us product and/or service so it can be thought of as a business. We pay $6000 to attend one of these fine events and we expect better. If I order dinner at restaurant and it comes out wrong, I expect them to fix it and make it free. While I certainly don't expect FIRST to be reimbursing teams for the unfortunate mistakes, I do believe these mistakes are wrong, no matter what the cause. A formal investigation, appology, and correction should be made as soon as possible.

[JonBell]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

A formal investigation, appology, and correction should be made as soon as possible.

Exactly. We were basically told "too bad, go pack up your robot and get out of the way", without any form of appology or GP. I don't demand that they fix the outcome of the match, but it would be nice to at least get an apology and some sort of assurance that such problems would be prevented in the future.

[ArmoredFairy698]

Teams do have to pay to get into the AZ Regional...it is a $5000 entry fee; just to enter in those doors and compete. It's well worth it, but no good if the scoring software doesn't work right.

I hope they get it fixed for the regionals to come!!

[Kevin Sevcik]

I believe (hope) that FIRST is hearing all of this and understands how upset some teams are and is just too incredibly busy with regionals and fixing things to say anything at the moment. They handed the PNW regional mix up in a very admirable fashion. Hopefully they will handle this in the same way.

[KenWittlief]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

...but the bottom line is we are customers of FIRST The first rule of business is that the customer is always right. You can say FIRST is not a business but in the end we pay them money and they provide us product and/or service so it can be thought of as a business. We pay $6000 to attend one of these fine events and we expect better. ....

YIKES!!! do a little checking before you explode. 35 teams at a regional paying $6k each come out to $210,000.

I think you would be shocked how much more than that it costs to put on a regional, and thats not counting the kit of parts, the year round work that has to be done

and the fact that almost every person working for FIRST at a regional is an UNPAID volunteer.

You are not even coming close to paying for what you get at a regional.

FIRST is a program designed to show students what a career in engineering and science is like. The robotics competition is only the platform, the bridge we cross, the project we take on in order to go through a quick engineering design/build/test cycle.

the competition is the 'test' phase - the chance to see how well your team did against the specifications of this years project.

What do you win if you win a regional? a trophy that is about 98¢ worth the plastic! If you goto the nationals and win, what do you win? 10 million dollars? full scholarships for all?

When you start thinking of FIRST as a robot building contest you have left the pavement and you are in deep weeds. That sort of thinking throws your whole perspective out of wack, and you end up in serious trouble.

Thats not what its all about.

That is not why thousands of people volunteer their time and their own money to be a part of FIRST.

That is not why sponsors give millions of dollars each year to host regionals, and to fund the nationals.

[ArmoredFairy698]

Whoa whoa whoa. Ok, please don't blow this up. I only posted this as a way of informing teams that yes, there has evidently been some software issues, but please don't make this out to be what it's not. FIRST is NOT just about the robots, it's about getting the opportunity to make your future better and to enjoy the chance that we all have to be engineers.

Please please please don't think that I'm dissing or complaining about FIRST. Think of this as an informant that teams should just keep an eye out and inform FIRST of software issues. I've learned that the program they are using is relatively new, so they've got bugs to work out. In other words, give FIRST a hand and use your GP to help them make the program better for future regionals, nationals, and years to come. FIRST is my hero, without them we have none of this, and I would never want to bite the hand that feeds me. I owe everything to FIRST Robotics. This is just a heads-ups to everyone to use your GP and give FIRST a hand in working out the bugs.

[Liz Smith]

Originally Posted by ArmoredFairy698

Here's the catch: the final scored posted for the AZ regionals put us in 15th place, with 6 wins and 6 losses. Unless the judges changed something without my team's knowledge, we are all still under the impression that we won 7 matches and lost 5. If you check out this site of the final scoring positions: http://www2.usfirst.org/2005comp/Eve.../rankings.html , you will see that we should have come in 9th place, or even tied for 8th. That means that with the way alliance were chosen, we would have been team #8 or #9, making me, (as representative for my team #698), an alliance captain.

I don't believe that the rankings on the FIRST website are correct, at least for the AZ regional. I know that team 555 was not the 1st seeded team, we were the 2nd and did not have the record that is shown on the website, so I don't know how reliable the information there is.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

YIKES!!! do a little checking before you explode. 35 teams at a regional paying $6k each come out to $210,000.

I think you would be shocked how much more than that it costs to put on a regional, and thats not counting the kit of parts, the year round work that has to be done

and the fact that almost every person working for FIRST at a regional is an UNPAID volunteer.

You are not even coming close to paying for what you get at a regional.

FIRST is a program designed to show students what a career in engineering and science is like. The robotics competition is only the platform, the bridge we cross, the project we take on in order to go through a quick engineering design/build/test cycle.

the competition is the 'test' phase - the chance to see how well your team did against the specifications of this years project.

What do you win if you win a regional? a trophy that is about 98¢ worth the plastic! If you goto the nationals and win, what do you win? 10 million dollars? full scholarships for all?

When you start thinking of FIRST as a robot building contest you have left the pavement and you are in deep weeds. That sort of thinking throws your whole perspective out of wack, and you end up in serious trouble.

Thats not what its all about.

That is not why thousands of people volunteer their time and their own money to be a part of FIRST.

That is not why sponsors give millions of dollars each year to host regionals, and to fund the nationals.

First, team registration fees are obviously paying for something. They wouldn't have jumped 20% if they were a pittance just necessary to pay for the kit of parts. And don't think $6K is all teams are paying either. They have to pay for hotels, travel, other robot building expenses, etc. More than $6K goes into most teams as well.

Second, yes, FIRST is about more than the robot competition. Despite this, the competitions are obviously rather important. Else, why have them? They get kids excited about FIRST. Building a robot is fun, but watching it compete is also fun. Feeling that your team has missed out because of a simple software glitch in a new scoring system that's being beta tested on the field? Not so fun. I wouldn't want to go to my sponsors and tell them that we missed out on winning a regional because FIRST is still dealing with scoring software bugs. I think our team's sponsors would be just a bit upset with FIRST.

The point of this is really that there are quite obviously problems with the scoring system and we haven't heard anything about it from FIRST. A team member from a team that attended a second week regional is the first person to let other teams know that they might want to double check their scores and rankings.

EDIT: Another thought. We always talk about how we want FIRST to be more spectator friendly and be taken seriously as a bowl of smarts and a sport of smart people, etc. How seriously would John Q. Public take one of these regionals with random buzzers going off or announcers having to fill in for the end of match buzzer?

[KenWittlief]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

I wouldn't want to go to my sponsors and tell them that we missed out on winning a regional because FIRST is still dealing with scoring software bugs. I think our team's sponsors would be just a bit upset with FIRST.

you dont get it. FIRST is everyone. Your sponser is as much a part of FIRST as the people at the headquarters in Manchester.

If there is a problem with the scoring system get some people down by the judges and volunteer to keep track of the scores manually.

FIRST is not a company. Its a non-profit organization. Everyone who is involved in it (including your sponsor company) IS FIRST.

Sponsors dont care about plastic trophies- they care about the students as individuals - they care about what career you choose to persue.

If they wanted fame and glory and attention, they would be sponsoring a NASCAR team instead of a FIRST team.

[dez250]

Please calm down, FIRST knows of the problems and the guys who wrote the software have been working on fixes and bugs that weren't caught before the regionals almost, if not daily since the first Wednesday of the week one regionals. If you look at past years, this years scoring system is more solid and faithful then any years past on both ends, what you see and what the scorekeepers see. It is good to hear of any problems you may find but please leave the insults and smart remarks at the door. Also judges (the guys in blue) have nothing to do with the game at all, please don't approach them with a game issue. Also the Refs (guys in zebra stripes) have nothing to do with the scoring beyond whats on the field, if you do see a problem alert the field manager or head ref with what you believe is an issue and they will try to have it resolved. Keep cool and hopefully this weekend will be better.