YMTC: Defensive Strategies

[MattB703]

Dr. Brooks
Do you really believe that the other team was trying to break your robot?

If they indeed were this is a very sad time in FIRST robotics.

I admit that I am perenially nieve, but I truly believe that most of these situations are young people who get a little excited about trying to keep an opposing robot away from scoring position. If they cannot push you steady state the natural (and wrong) reaction is to use an impact. It is our job as coaches to be on gaurd against that.

I don't want to believe that any team in FIRST would intentionally break another robot to win a match.

[LeadU2Fun]

Originally Posted by zdeswarte

The way it SHOULD be would be the way defensive fouls are called in basketball. If the defender is moving and interferes with the offensive player, there is a foul called (dq). However, if the defender is planted (feet staying still, player not moving) there is no foul called on the defender in an "incidental" confrontation. I haven't looked a whole lot at the actual rules, but in the spirit of gracious professionalism, this is the way it should probably be...

The only problem with that analogy is that in basketball you can steal the ball (tetra) as which you cannot do here. Also, in basketball you are stopped if you do not make the ball available to the opposing player by dribbling. I like a better analogy of soccer. Stay between the goal and the ball (tetra). Nudging and side contact are to be had but nothing to trip the other player up. And if you are blocking a tetra then you should be contacting it. For example, at the Arizona regional team 555 has a low robot with an arm that has a ball on the end that they use to keep a tetra from being capped. At the Arizona Regionals I will be happy to report that through gracious professionalism I didn't see any intentional robot knock overs even though the possibility existed many times with a cappers arm connected to the top of the goal. There were a couple accidental knock overs, however. The few defensive robots made the matches exciting at our regional. It was a good break from the "I can cap faster than you..." game not to mention that they were seeded well. I predict the nat. champ alliance will have at least one defender.

[Justin_302]

I am not saying turn FIRST into battlebots. I think teams need to take defense into concideration when building a robot. They need to be well protected, the electronics well protected, and have no loose hoses/wires of any type. Also, alot of top heavy robots this year with these monsterous arms. I was amazed to see how high some of the teams actualy got. The rules state "No pushing high", but if you push low they tip. I feel bad when other robots get tipped over or destroyed because i know how hard teams work to build, but sports are not about offense. How many football teams do you see walk on the field and not play defense(besides the detroit lions )???

Teams need to play defense and push other robots around. Intentional destruction should not be accepted. Alot of the parents and on-lookers do not want to see a bunch of robots scoring, they want to see some contact. It makes the game fun.

[BRAVESaj25bd8]

Originally Posted by LeadU2Fun

The only problem with that analogy is that in basketball you can steal the ball (tetra) as which you cannot do here.

You are incorrect in this point. I manipulate for our team and I stole a tetra from another robot when they were about to cap. You just have to be careful that you do no tip them or descore the tetra. Oh man taking that tetra was by far the best maneuver I've made with our arms the past 2 years. And the most fun.

[Jay TenBrink]

It seems that we sometimes use the word “defense” as a code word for “ramming”. I would like to offer a number of other potential defensive tactics where pushing is not required:

1) Removing a tetra from an opponent’s arm before they can cap.
2) Blocking your opponent from reaching their human or auto loading zone
3) Capping a goal(s) in your opponents’ home row
4) Pretending to cap in your opponents’ home row to draw them out
5) Extending your arm over the goal to keep it from being capped

Would these actions be viewed as non-GP, or just good strategic moves?


Jay

[eugenebrooks]

Originally Posted by MattB703

Dr. Brooks
Do you really believe that the other team was trying to break your robot?

I think that you can only look at the data and reach your own conclusions.

The robot does not really attempt to push. It backs up and impacts a
wheel at high speed. The left rear wheel pops off. The first broken
wheel is easily interpreted as an unintended consequence.
Our robot still moves, carefully, towards capping a goal. The robot
backs up again and rams the middle wheel at high speed, breaking it off.
This action was taken with knowledge of what had happened with the
first high speed impact, itself being against the rules.

Amazingly, our robot could still inch its way towards capping a goal.
Equally amazingly, the robot that had broken two wheels off then
impacts our robot several times again, in the location of the
remaining wheel on that side.

The driver came by after the match to see the damage done. He did
not apologize for the action and its consequences. He was asked why
he kept ramming us after breaking off two wheels. His answer was
that he did it because we were still moving.

This is what happened, YMTC.

[meaubry]

Justin,
You wrote, the rules state "No pushing high", but if you push low they tip. I feel bad when other robots get tipped over or destroyed because i know how hard teams work to build, but sports are not about offense.

Teams need to play defense and push other robots around. Intentional destruction should not be accepted. Alot of the parents and on-lookers do not want to see a bunch of robots scoring, they want to see some contact. It makes the game fun.[/quote]



FIRST is a competition, but I won't catagorize it as a sport.
I am concerned about your comment that teams "need to play defense and push other robots around" - why do you need to push other robots? Defense doesn't just include pushing around other robots. Often forces from pushing (even low) can destroy robustly built mechanisms, like bending drive trains and wheel axles and frames. The forces are very large and it only gets worse when ramming (dynamic impacts) are allowed.
I for one did not enjoy the FIRST games that turned into pushing matches - I thought that was boring. Give me a high scoring offensive game and I'm happy. Defense for strategy sake is fine - but not when teams robots get broken in the process. Yes, I know that each team should have built the robot more robustly, even FIRST acknowledges that "Triple Play is a highly interactive contact game. They give examples of what is acceptable and what is not

What is missing is something about "applying continuous excessive force", with some of these drive systems pushing perpendicular to many robots drive wheels will destroy them. How robust do you have to build, in order to withstand those kinds of forces?

[Quatitos]

Originally Posted by Justin_302

see i have to disagree with you on this. i think teams should be able to stop an offensive robot. i think the ramming rule a little harsh because teams should be building their robot for a little abuse, but a full power ram should not be able to fly. i do not agree with the tipping rule. the head ref at ypsi told us if we picked a robot up even an inch, we would be penalized. i understand that tipping is against gracious professionalism, which is why when a robot started to tip, we backed off...but it makes me wonder why the rules are so strict this year

The rules about tipping are so strict this year because you have 6 human players running around the border of the field and then you have 2 first volunteers reloading the autoload stations. What if your team tipped over a robot and it almost fell onto one of these people? Don't you think the safety of yours and other team members is worth the strict rules?

It might be just me though. At the Great Lakes regional our team was the target of many "defensive strategies". I know of atleast 2 or 3 matches where our robot was double teamed by robots and pinned and pushed around. Now luckily we were usually faster and able to outmanuever these teams so not much damage could be done, but it got old really fast when we had hoped that most teams would stick to offense. Heck, we were even getting pushed around and blocked during the practice matches on thursday.

[Waynep]

Two Words: SOFT DEFENSE
Any robot can be an effective defensive partner if they play defense smart. There are a lot of teams that don't realize that you don't have to be the strongest bot or be the bully who rams, or has a wedge to be a defensive robot. Give me any robot and I will get them to play effective defense by getting in the way or pushing in the right spots. Good example is 1708, when we put them in using the kit bot they did nothing different then what we would have done had 395 been running and did an incredible job against MOE. (MOE I say this with all due respect as you had an outstanding robot and was the most threatening to us as a capper). Positional defense is more important than taking out one paticular robot. When robots become bullies they lose sight of what else is going on on the field and wind up wasting their time tangling with one robot. And as others have said, it's not in the SPIRIT of FIRST; everyone has worked very hard to get their robots here to compete so you should be mindful of what they put so much time and effort into. You do not have to hit hard to play defense, nor should you in my opinion. Also, set boundaries to avoid taking penalties and to provide best coverage. Make soft defense clear on your alliance during strategy meetings for your opponents sake and for your alliance.
-wayne

[Rich Wong]

Originally Posted by Waynep

Two Words: SOFT DEFENSE
.....
Also, set boundaries to avoid taking penalties and to provide best coverage. Make soft defense clear on your alliance during strategy meetings for your opponents sake and for your alliance.
-wayne

EXCELLENT WORDS TO LIVE BY!

[Joe Matt]

Originally Posted by Quatitos

It might be just me though. At the Great Lakes regional our team was the target of many "defensive strategies". I know of atleast 2 or 3 matches where our robot was double teamed by robots and pinned and pushed around. Now luckily we were usually faster and able to outmanuever these teams so not much damage could be done, but it got old really fast when we had hoped that most teams would stick to offense. Heck, we were even getting pushed around and blocked during the practice matches on thursday.

I think this thread is not aimed at pushing or being bothered by two teams parired up from the other alliance. The problem is when teams walk to very fine line all the time, then play dumb when something bad happens.

Talking about the no tipping rule....

[Justin_302]

I am not saying FIRST should be battlebots. I am saying defense is part of every game. Teams should build their robots to take abuse.

[Eria4044]

Originally Posted by Justin_302

I am not saying FIRST should be battlebots. I am saying defense is part of every game. Teams should build their robots to take abuse.

Right. In the St. Louis regional last week, there were robots that tipped over easily. It wasn't unfair to take advantage of that, as the goal of the game is to win. And I think everyone knows that there's a fine line between defensive maneuvers and just ramming the heck out of another robot. There are rules against, for example, intentionally ripping out somebody's battery. Defense is just part of the game, but people should remember to be civil.

[Matt Reiland]

Originally Posted by Justin_302

I am not saying FIRST should be battlebots. I am saying defense is part of every game. Teams should build their robots to take abuse.

Justin, as the thread starter I totally agree with you that defense is a valid strategy, what I don't like (and why I started the thread) are the certain teams that are playing essentially an 'offensive' defense of going around and ramming the other robots. Blocking is OK, pushing is OK, tipping is NOT OK and ramming shouldn't be OK. If you are literally backing up and going forward and backing up and going forward into another robot you should be penalized, if it continues I argue that you should be DQ'd. My real beef is that at certain regionals you would be and at others you might/might not be penalized and definitely not DQ'd. The rules should be consistent.

If ramming is the name of the game, then heck, we can take the lift off our robot and armour up the sides and play all day long with who ever wants to play, but that isn't the point of this competition IMHO. As stated earlier, you can build a very robust robot, but it stands little chance over time of not being affected by a 130lb hammer nailing it over and over, and over. Eventually it will break.