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  #46   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 15-03-2005, 14:55
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Re: AZ Regionals: Incorrect Scoring?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uki

I'm not sure how many of you know really what it takes to develop a piece of software like this or the time constraints that were in this particular situation.
Uki,

I am really surprised at your response considering your extensive experience with FIRST. As a group, we are probably the most knowledgeable as to what it takes to develop software to do scoring and placements. The basic algorithm for the scoring and placements is not rocket science and could be written in any programming language, spreadsheet or database program. I realize that the graphic display and web interface can be complicated but that is not the part that the teams are upset about. The accuracy of recording scores, ranking the teams and alliance selection needs to be guaranteed by FIRST or else their reputation will be tarnished.

The tens of thousands of team members, that have spent hundreds of thousands of hours and tens of millions of dollars, deserve and accurate system for scoring. Any less is an insult to time and effort they have spent building robots to compete.
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Unread 15-03-2005, 15:10
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Re: AZ Regionals: Incorrect Scoring?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ttedrow
I realize that the graphic display and web interface can be complicated but that is not the part that the teams are upset about. The accuracy of recording scores, ranking the teams and alliance selection needs to be guaranteed by FIRST or else their reputation will be tarnished.
This is the key. We don't build robots with the intent to win by pure luck or chance or the whim of some malfunctioning computer system. We intend to win by the effort we put in, the skill we develop, and the strategy we create.

If we come to expect to have a computer messup ruin our score/rank, why should we try hard to win?

And for those of you who say it is not about winning, it IS. Without a "win" to strive for, there would be no competition and we would be years behind where we are now. This is not an exhibition, it is a competition. In the real world, people notice you when you put on a show, they notice you when you are better than the next guy.

Competition is the key to this, well, competition. And innacurate scoring reduces the energy put forth in attempt to score well.
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Unread 15-03-2005, 18:31
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Re: AZ Regionals: Incorrect Scoring?

Hatch has been working on this scoring system since before Kickoff giving them plenty of time to get it working. Why did FIRST decide not to use TacOps? Well I have several ideas but it definatly wasn't because it was too hard to change TacOps to support 3 teams per alliance, that would be extremely easy to do since TacOps was written to be used year after year.
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Unread 15-03-2005, 18:36
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Re: AZ Regionals: Incorrect Scoring?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dk5sm5luigi
Hatch has been working on this scoring system since before Kickoff giving them plenty of time to get it working. Why did FIRST decide not to use TacOps? Well I have several ideas but it definatly wasn't because it was too hard to change TacOps to support 3 teams per alliance, that would be extremely easy to do since TacOps was written to be used year after year.
My theory of why goes back to the nice, new wall-o-attennas that we have. I heard that the new Hatch software controls the atennas along with the robots for autonomous, the field components, etc.
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Unread 15-03-2005, 19:42
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Re: AZ Regionals: Incorrect Scoring?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JosephM
My theory of why goes back to the nice, new wall-o-attennas that we have. I heard that the new Hatch software controls the atennas along with the robots for autonomous, the field components, etc.
TacOps did all of that too, minus the anttennas which are new. TacOps has been used for years at competitions, mostly in the off-season which is why it worked so well last year. It never had the problems we have now it just didn't have all the features which were not necessary to run a competition.
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Unread 15-03-2005, 22:59
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Re: AZ Regionals: Incorrect Scoring?

I was trying not to get into specifics or hurt anyones feelings but I guess i've gotta let the real truth out.

TacOps was a great program, but there are many reasons why it wasn't continued. First of all, as you said it was, "TacOps has been used for years at competitions, mostly in the off-season which is why it worked so well last year. It never had the problems we have now it just didn't have all the features which were not necessary to run a competition."

That wasn't true, he was working on it 3 months after championship fixing things, we didn't even have live scoring till late in the season. And this big problem you seem to think we have, was not caused by the scoring system. It was caused by the game design commity changing the rules of the rankings before last week's regionals. I'm sure most of you got the latest update that states that.

The other reason why TacOps was not used was because Alan Bradly donated a enough PLC's to be used for this years competition. And at the time, there were NO unix or linux drivers for Alan Bradly PLC's. There would have had to been drivers written, which would have cost FIRST even more money to do, along with the fact they would not retain ownership of the code written specificly for there use.

They also wanted to get to a more commonly used operating system, the reason for that is they did not want to ship the large crates used for the scoring system last year. All this years off season competitions will get is disc, as of now FIRST will not be providing laptops.

One of the other big contributing factors is that Hatch only had a month to design and test there software. I will tell you right now, TacOps had far longer then Hatch did for this, as people who said in this thread before, the software had been developed for years, why did it have so many issues last year then? If it was such a great and wonderful program, why was there so many updates and glitches last year?

So we don't have another thread about this next year, can we all just encourage FIRST to continue its development of the software we have now, so we aren't fighting about this the same time next year? Lets not go 4 for 4, 3rd time is a charm.
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Unread 16-03-2005, 00:07
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Re: AZ Regionals: Incorrect Scoring?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uki
That wasn't true, he was working on it 3 months after championship fixing things, we didn't even have live scoring till late in the season. And this big problem you seem to think we have, was not caused by the scoring system. It was caused by the game design commity changing the rules of the rankings before last week's regionals. I'm sure most of you got the latest update that states that.
The rule change (released 3/10) shouldn't have impacted w/e #1 events (released 3/3-3/5) , though. Also it should not have impacted win-loss in this example: I saw a team in Florida, 1390, have two wins and one loss, yet their stats showed up as 1-2-0. Their first was an outright loss, no penalties. Their second, an outright win. Their third they won even without the opponents penalty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uki
The other reason why TacOps was not used was because Alan Bradly donated a enough PLC's to be used for this years competition. And at the time, there were NO unix or linux drivers for Alan Bradly PLC's. There would have had to been drivers written, which would have cost FIRST even more money to do, along with the fact they would not retain ownership of the code written specificly for there use.
Are the scoring and field controls closely tied together?
If so, why? Could the scoring be modular and extracted out? The only thing the field should need from scoring are the team numbers for the display and maybe the match number. The clock can be started and ran outside scoring, if not done already.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uki
One of the other big contributing factors is that Hatch only had a month to design and test there software. I will tell you right now, TacOps had far longer then Hatch did for this, as people who said in this thread before, the software had been developed for years, why did it have so many issues last year then? If it was such a great and wonderful program, why was there so many updates and glitches last year?
Scoring (calc of QP and RP) is virtually the same as last year, minus update 15. If match scores and rankings are being adversly affected, why not switch to an excel spreadsheet and "hand compute" the seeding? That would at least preseve the integrity of the tournament.

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Unread 16-03-2005, 00:37
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Re: AZ Regionals: Incorrect Scoring?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uki
I was trying not to get into specifics or hurt anyones feelings but I guess i've gotta let the real truth out.

TacOps was a great program, but there are many reasons why it wasn't continued. First of all, as you said it was, "TacOps has been used for years at competitions, mostly in the off-season which is why it worked so well last year. It never had the problems we have now it just didn't have all the features which were not necessary to run a competition."

That wasn't true, he was working on it 3 months after championship fixing things, we didn't even have live scoring till late in the season. And this big problem you seem to think we have, was not caused by the scoring system. It was caused by the game design commity changing the rules of the rankings before last week's regionals. I'm sure most of you got the latest update that states that.

The other reason why TacOps was not used was because Alan Bradly donated a enough PLC's to be used for this years competition. And at the time, there were NO unix or linux drivers for Alan Bradly PLC's. There would have had to been drivers written, which would have cost FIRST even more money to do, along with the fact they would not retain ownership of the code written specificly for there use.

They also wanted to get to a more commonly used operating system, the reason for that is they did not want to ship the large crates used for the scoring system last year. All this years off season competitions will get is disc, as of now FIRST will not be providing laptops.

One of the other big contributing factors is that Hatch only had a month to design and test there software. I will tell you right now, TacOps had far longer then Hatch did for this, as people who said in this thread before, the software had been developed for years, why did it have so many issues last year then? If it was such a great and wonderful program, why was there so many updates and glitches last year?

So we don't have another thread about this next year, can we all just encourage FIRST to continue its development of the software we have now, so we aren't fighting about this the same time next year? Lets not go 4 for 4, 3rd time is a charm.
The number of half-truths, mistakes, and just plain wrong statements in this post is staggering. To touch on just a few of the issues:

"the reason for that is they did not want to ship the large crates used for the scoring system last year." The shipping of large crates had absolutely nothing to do with the reasons for the change in the field control system. In fact, the new field control system is almost exactly the same total volume as the previous system. There is no change in the number or size of the crates involved, and the shipping volume was not a consideration in the change.

The statement "It was caused by the game design commity [sic] changing the rules of the rankings before last week's regionals" is complete farce. The errors in the scoring/ranking software have been there since the beginning of the season. They were masked by the other errors in the system, so they just were not as obvious to the audience and teams (e.g. Richmond Regional; it is hard to concentrate on the rankings when the field is running two hours behind schedule). The changes to the ranking structure were made in response to the errors discovered during the first week regionals, not the other way around.

The statement "Hatch only had a month to design and test there [sic] software" is garbage. Hatch Technology has been developing the new control system since last August (and for the record, Hatch Technology is represented on the Game Design Committee, and Hatch has known the tournament structure and scoring rules since they were developed last summer/fall; if anyone says that the GDC did not let Hatch know about the game/scoring structure until too late, then they are demonstrating their ignorance of the subject).

These are just a few of the errors in the referenced post, but I think you get the idea. This NOT the "real truth," it is "real fiction."

As an aside, one might be well served to take the advice of this post.

-dave
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Last edited by dlavery : 16-03-2005 at 09:00.
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Unread 17-03-2005, 12:11
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Re: AZ Regionals: Incorrect Scoring?

I've got to agree with Dave on this one (cringing as I type that ). It's one thing to post thoughts, guesses, opinions - that's all good and is what makes discussions on this forum interesting and enlightening. However, it's a whole other thing to make statements claiming first hand knowledge & facts without actually having first hand knowledge, facts, or accurate information. I agree with Dave that being irresponsible in that manner is at best misguided and incorrect, while at worst just plain fabrication and mis-truths.

Just to be crystal clear so that people don't make any assumptions based on purely wrong information:

1. There were a number of reasons for going with the new scoring software this year, and none of those were mentioned in the post Dave replied to.

2. Hatch Technology did two things for FIRST this year - they improved /streamlined the field hardware setup and they created the scoring software. They did a very nice job with the field hardware improvements - it's slick, well organized, much easier to work with, and is working well. They've had problems with the software, are aware of it, and are working on getting it fixed. I'm sure Hatch would be the first to tell everyone that it hasn't worked as well as they anticipated and some glitches they didn't intend to exist got by their testing and into the competition season. It is what it is, they are working on it, and they very well may have everything working perfectly and as originally planned from this point on.

3. Hatch has been a part of EVERY SINGLE GAME DESIGN MEETING AND CONFERENCE CALL since JULY. Uki - that's OVER EIGHT MONTHS! NOTHING has changed regarding the alliance selection, the playoff brackets, the team rankings and pit displays - these are all things they were able to be working on since the summer. I'm sure you were just given wrong information by someone who didn't know what they were talking about, but the people at FIRST are smart enough to ensure that the people doing the software were aware of the game, the scoring, and all the needed displays well over 3 months ago. Claiming FIRST only gave 1 month to design the software is nothing short of 100% innaccurate. The Hatch people will tell you they've known the game since the fall and have known the scoring/ranking/display needs since well before the kickoff.

4. FIRST was assured the software was tested and working before the competition season began. In week 1, it became evident there were some glitches in the system that went undetected. They tried to fix this problems for week 2 and weren't successful, with more glitches being found.
Again, it's as simple as this - some mistakes were made, they weren't intended, and they are working hard to fix their software.

5. We worked with Andy Baker and Joe Johnson this week to help us create a backup system just to ensure and validate all the match scores. They came up with this system in 24 HOURS, truly amazing. Is it perfect, of course not. Might we find some glitches in the excel spreadsheet? Of course we might, it was done in 24 hours. But the fact that Joe (Andy and myself helped a bit, but we both want to commend Joe for all the time and work he put in - he did most of the work) got this backup ready in one day is truly amazing and we can't thank him enough.

We anticipate that Hatch will have the system working well this weekend. They are good people, working as hard as they can, who have every intention of having the system working to their own high standards from this point on. If all goes as planned, we probably just had Joe and Andy spend a lot of time creating something we won't even need - but it is nice to know we have a backup program available to double check and verify everything. Let's see how everything works this week. The season is going great so far, the teams and the competition in the first two weeks have been incredible, and the software issues are really the only major problem we've had this year. And I want to repeat - Hatch did a great job on the field hardware, they are working hard to complete their software and I'm confident they will.

LAST - Dave addressed the post by Uki, but I will add one piece of advice that I think all FIRST teams have learned from experience at some point or another. At some point in almost every large undertaking, some mistakes will be made.
A) The key to fixing those mistakes is to find them, acknowledge they exist, be accountable for them, figure out what needs to be fixed, and do it. If all energy is focused on that, then solutions and results will come as quick as possible
B) Wasting time trying to avoid being accountable, wasting time being in denial or trying to redirect blame for something or trying to deny the true facts of a situation (or create false facts) is only misdirected energy which guarantees that it takes longer to address the problem and fix it.

Uki, I'm assuming you don't work for Hatch, so that advice doesn't apply to them in this case - they are working hard to fix it. Sorry if Dave and I are being a bit blunt, but your post did border on "B" and not "A". I'm sure you didn't intend that, it's just a by product of posting statements about something you weren't involved in, didn't know the facts about and had been given false information about by someone else. I'm sure you didn't know that whoever was giving you information did not know what they were talking about - and whoever that person is, they really do owe you an apology.

Like I said - here's to the rest of the season. Good luck to everyone, keep up the great work, and have a great time at your events.

Jason

Last edited by Jason Morrella : 17-03-2005 at 14:33.
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Unread 17-03-2005, 14:33
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Re: AZ Regionals: Incorrect Scoring?

Thanks Jason. That cleared a lot of things up.
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Unread 17-03-2005, 21:27
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Re: AZ Regionals: Incorrect Scoring?

Its good to know we have people who are on the ball like Dave Lavery and Jason Morella working on this problem. I am fully confident this problem will be fixed.
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Unread 18-03-2005, 13:38
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Re: AZ Regionals: Incorrect Scoring?

Just to let you all know, your team mentor or leader for the team (the one that is registered with TIMS and FIRST) should have recieved an official email from FIRST with a formal apology for the scoring errors during the regionals.

I did write to FIRST Robotics in an INFORMATIVE email to just let them know that we noticed some scoring/scoring software issues at the AZ Regional 2005. I am NOT mad at FIRST, nor do I hold them directly responsible for the mishaps. Every program has it's bugs, and this one still has a few to work out. Once again, I do NOT hold FIRST or the scorekeepers responsible for the software issues. Things happen, it's a part of life.

I am not sure if I am allowed to post the offcial FIRST email on here, but if I can, please let me know. I recieved it via my team mentor/teacher because I am an officer on my team.

The email also said that the final scores from the first and second regional weekends would not be posted due to the scoring errors, so if you look at the AZ regional scoring URL that I posted in my original post, it has been dissabled. This is due to the fact that FIRST wanted to check over scores.

Just thought I ought to let you know. And please, if I am allowed to post bits and pieces of that email, let me know. I don't want to violate any rules or regulations of FIRST by posting it, so I'll wait for a definate answer.

Thank you all for the support and information on this topic! It is all greatly appreciated and I have read all of your posts in-depth.

Thank you again,
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Unread 18-03-2005, 14:10
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Re: AZ Regionals: Incorrect Scoring?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArmoredFairy698
And please, if I am allowed to post bits and pieces of that email, let me know. I don't want to violate any rules or regulations of FIRST by posting it, so I'll wait for a definate answer.
Everyone on FIRST's mailing list received the email. It has come out as team update 16
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Unread 20-03-2005, 13:31
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Re: AZ Regionals: Incorrect Scoring?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory
Everyone on FIRST's mailing list received the email. It has come out as team update 16

Thanks Cory.

So there you have it! Check out Team Update #16 at http://www.usfirst.org/robotics/2005/tmup.htm. (Just scroll to the bottom of the page and you'll see the link to the PDF.)

Thanks again for all the team and FIRST Robotics support, you guys have been wonderful.

Always,
Caitlyn

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Unread 20-03-2005, 23:30
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Re: AZ Regionals: Incorrect Scoring?

You guys are all right FIRST needs to get their software de-bugged and fast. I did scoring and Field control at NJ regional. man did i have problems. we had to delay the alliance picking so that we could figure out where our data base had made a computing error. Then once we got into the Quarter finals CRASH We had no elimination tree. we had no scoring cards. and the computer itself crashed at least 4 or 5 times. The system would keep saying that no matter how the matches ended that the Blue alliance would always advance. and then we could not use real time scoring. they would not link to the computers. Then i had to manually punch in the team numbers and make my own half baked system of quarter all the way to the final matches. talk about a pain. i had to score every match as qualifying match 1. and every time the score was showed on the big screen the team numbers where wrong even if i manually punched them in. it was a crazy time on my end. its a wonder i got the field going some times!
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