pic: (447) How do YOU keep programmers out of the electronics?

[nehalita]

because of ppl like you, i do not TOUCH the robot. i don't even press the load button or the reset button. nooo touchy. but i like it better like that, this way, when something goes wrong, i can wholly blame the electronics ppl and not just partially. =)

[Rombus]

That’s why you be both I program and do electronics.

I cant see how teams succeed with both teams being completely separate unless you had some great communications. Heck, it’s probably a good idea to have everyone be cross trained in another team for good communications.

And a small jab at the electronics only people:
Lets be honest, it’s just wiring! It’s not like you have to build a custom robotic controller! (J/K Please don’t flame me )

[rufu5]

Lets be honest, it’s just wiring!

(lol, this isnt a flame, its safe to read on


I agree with you 100% The wiring of a FIRST robot is "just wiring" But the conceptualizing and creating of things like virtual joysticks, and a full optical control system is not "just wiring" I programmed in basic for my first 4 years, with the default code and a few if statements, programming is "just programming" but if you want to work autonomous magick, you have to know what your doing. I tell you a small parable to emphasise my point.

I missed this last saturday because of skillbowl regionals. I came back late saturday afternoon to the all too everpresent programmer cries of "ITS WIRED WRONG!" I asked: "What did you people change?" I got the good ol' "nothing, your wiring is wrong, I can't do anything till you fix it."

I make mistakes, so I probed a little deeper and broke out my volt meter and found out that the programmer's dad had wired up the banner sensor himself (with help from his programmer son of course). It was wired into a PWM sharing a common +5 with a hall-effect sensor. (Now at this point the programmers reading this are saying "so" and the electrcians with 3+ years are saying "OMFG BANANNAS!")

I'll just let you know, the banner sensors (the throwback optical sensors from 3ish years ago) have to, HAVE TO, have a seperate +12 to operate. If you run them straight into a PWM with +5 it will completly bog down your digital in bus and stop all robot actions.

So once I found this problem, I became aware of this buzzing sound. It was the constant "advice" of the programmers on how to fix "my" wiring problems. Little did they know, one of their own had done it, and I knew how to fix it. So I "Had Fun", I went into the other room, roamed around on chiefdelphi, checked my e-mail, checked the CAL ladder, and after 1.5 hrs went back in, after the programmers had officially decleared we had a faulty RC and the world was ending, I fixed the problem in one pimptastic swoop. I took the +5 and - the hall-effect and banner senseor were sharing and re-wired them to the breaker panel (because I knew the hall-effect was rated up to around +15 I think).

Moral of the story:

1) Keep the programmers away from your electronics~!

2) If you do electronics, learn C and phase out the programmers (its not hard at all, get "Sam's Teach yourself C in 21 days" - problem solved)

(my hat is off to all of you who already do both

[AIBob]

Originally Posted by rufu5

1) Keep the programmers away from your electronics~!

It is not a good idea to keep programmers away from electronics, unless they do not know electronics, which they should because electronics are very related.

Originally Posted by rufu5

2) If you do electronics, learn C and phase out the programmers (its not hard at all, get "Sam's Teach yourself C in 21 days" - problem solved)

Good idea except instead of phasing them out, I would recommend that you teach both groups how to do both (just in case), instead of just having the electronics team doing both, and of course you are right, programming is not hard at all.

[408Oxidation]

Originally Posted by nehalita

because of ppl like you, i do not TOUCH the robot. i don't even press the load button or the reset button. nooo touchy. but i like it better like that, this way, when something goes wrong, i can wholly blame the electronics ppl and not just partially. =)

So true...
I get blamed for everything wrong with the programming.... crazy indian programmers...

One member of our team, we still don't know who, wired a little badly during our "in house competition" before FIRST. One of the victors on the test bot had both the power input and ouput cables goin to the fuse board. It made nice smelling smoke.

[Jizvonius]

Ok guys.. this has really gone on for way too long. The electrical team is called that because they handle all the electrical hardware on the robot. If you have one, it means that you have some faith in their abilities. The same applies to programmers with their job being software. If a problem arises, playing the blame game just wastes time. The way i see it goes like this.

- Blame teams -(time passes)

- Figure out who got blamed more -(more time passes)

- Losing team goes insane trying to find the problem with other team standing vindictively behind them - (you've missed 1-2 practice matches)

- Other team begins to search for problem in losing teams area of expertise -(missed another 1-2 practice matches)

- Giving up the other team begins to scour their area for the problem with the previously losing team being vindictive - (miss or operate badly in 1-4 Seeding rounds)

- Problem is finally found and hopefully resolved -(two whole teams are worn out and a lot of time is wasted)

The times may be shorter or longer, but what I'm saying is always entertain the possibility that your team did it. Each team should work on finding and solving the problem their area of expertise. The problem will almost always be found faster and you save your whole team a lot of headaches.

So back to the topic. How do I keep the programmers out of the electronics? Mutual respect for each other's work and an understanding of efficient team dynamics.

[neilsonster]

On our robot the program port is right beside the wheels so I have to go in between the chains to get to it... all they would have to do is turn it on while I'm working to kill my precious fingers (or my precious serial cable)! But that's why I unplug the pwms! To save my fingers.

(I usually plug them back in afterwards)

[nightrenegade00]

Nice pic. except we wouldn't be keeping our programmer out of the electronics. We'd be keeping other kids who might screw up the electronics out of there. Not mentioning names, there is a kid on our team (freshman this year) who has a lot of dedication and hard working skills. The only problem is that he gets annoying cause he talks a lot and likes to "fix" stuff on the robot. lol. that would be perfect for this kid. thanks for the idea.

-Crash

[Validius]

lol, on 1549 all of us except our 1 programmer are ellectrical and mechanical. I am learning C as well, not to replace him as he is brilliant but so i can write things in that he attributes to "operator error". In short...

If the ellectronics and mechanical both work, programmers blame THE DRIVERS!!!!!!

[Biff]

Originally Posted by rufu5

see, the programmer in its natural habitat will instinctively blame the electronics for the problem:

just this evening the programmer and his dad spent (no exaggeration) 1.5 hrs troubleshooting the electronics, before they figured out "hey, i just loaded a new code"

as a good electronics person, whenever you see a programmer with a screwdriver, you must immediately inform the proper authorities

i love programmers

Been there, and As a lead mentor, when I get really grumpy, I make programming back up every hex file with a useful name, So the one that was somewhere near correct can be put back in while they sort out what went wrong.

[pickle]

Biff: You'd get along well with our electronics/programming mentor.....

Our problem usually lies in mechanical people messing up... I'll never forget that somehow they shorted out one of our relay outputs with a chain.... That was amusing, especially as they scream and say "uhhhh.... pickle... are sparks a good thing coming out of that black box???". Ya, it was fun.

But you should be nice to programmers, we don't like being blamed for everything (because its so easy). I think last year one of the teachers told me to fix like a mechanical design flaw in software.. this year i think he told me to take 10 pounds off in software... You should love your programmers

But I do think that since electronics and programming are so related, its a good idea to have one team work on both. It keeps things less confusing. Last year we had to play the pick the pwm port game, where before almost every match they had rewired the PWM cables to different outputs because they didn't know which went where. That was oodles of fun, especaially if it didn't get worked out before the driver had to drive it..... Though, beware programmers with screwdrivers is a good motto.. *looks at scars* hammer + screwdriver + programmer = bad

[Katy]

A mousetrap? *sighs* yet another software problem...

[rufu5]

ya, we play the blame game all build season, but when it comes time to compete, problems get fixed fast, but its because, at least on our team, down in the pits its just the lead students from each sub team, none of the "underlings"

but i give mad props to all the up and coming programmers and electricians, who have messed up, got blamed, and fixed their problems, because one day, you will be the head electrician or programmer, down in the pits, making those 5 minute fixes for the finals

[FreakyAntelope]

Originally Posted by neilsonster

On our robot the program port is right beside the wheels so I have to go in between the chains to get to it... all they would have to do is turn it on while I'm working to kill my precious fingers (or my precious serial cable)! But that's why I unplug the pwms! To save my fingers.

(I usually plug them back in afterwards)

One (serious) suggestion for anyone who hasn't already done this:

The robot controller can often (read always) be hard to reach. If you plug serial cables into the program and tether ports and run them neatly to somewhere somewhat accessible on your bot it becomes much easier to plug in. You can even put them up high (depending on the bot) so you don't even have to bend over to plug them in! hows that for convenient!

Also, a rocker switch attached to the reset and program buttons in an easy to reach place is also a good idea.

- Toby