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Unread 23-03-2005, 15:59
Ian Curtis Ian Curtis is offline
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Re: Winning Defensive Allaince?

Defense works really well. Defense doesn't necassarily mean strong drivetrain. We figured out in the quarterfinals that with out claw we could grab anyones tetra (who had a stick through the tetra) and either steal of push it out of place. Hence we could play defense on two bots instead of one. If you can dislodge their tetra they have to go back and get another one where just pushign them around just well pushes them around. They just go and try again instead of having to go get another tetra.
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Unread 23-03-2005, 17:15
nobrakes8 nobrakes8 is offline
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Re: Winning Defensive Allaince?

At UTC team 1071 prevented team 230 from scoreing any points. We stole 2 tetra's (6 points and those 2 would have been stacked) and we prevented another two with our arm (another 6 points).. Had we played offense, we would have probably still won, even if we had scored just 1 tetra (we average 4-6 tetra's per match). To be honest, I don't think team 1071 ramed or bumped team 230 it was strictly the arm working

The alliance with team 1071, 69, 126 won the finals match by 12 points, the amount that was stolen and blocked.

I can see the point about 3 teams scoreing vs 2, but that would be a poorly executed defensive plan. Our team knows what types of robots we can block easily and play defense against and we know our limits which is why the few times 1071 does play defense they are sucessful 9 out of 10 times in preventing a team from scoreing.
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Unread 23-03-2005, 17:25
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Re: Winning Defensive Allaince?

You guys are missing the point. If one of your robots plays defense, and you picked them for the purpose of playing defense then it won't be 3 on 2, it will be 2 on 2 or even 2 on 1 depending on how good the defense is. That defense robot will prvent another robot from scoring not just sit their and let the other allaince drive all over the field. KEEP THIS IN MIND
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Unread 24-03-2005, 09:25
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Re: Winning Defensive Allaince?

Quote:
Originally Posted by M.O.R.T.
You guys are missing the point. If one of your robots plays defense, and you picked them for the purpose of playing defense then it won't be 3 on 2, it will be 2 on 2 or even 2 on 1 depending on how good the defense is. That defense robot will prvent another robot from scoring not just sit their and let the other allaince drive all over the field. KEEP THIS IN MIND

I would agree with you except for that the layout of this game, there are a possible 6 goals that you could go for at all times and due to that fact, you will always be closer to one than the person is trying to defend you is. Any good capper should be able to cap without much of a problem if they reach the goal first, even with a little resistance. Ill agree with Paul and stick with my 3 offensive robots I am skeptical only because I have not seen it done yet, not seen a successful 2 offensive 1 defensive alliance in the elims win yet personally.
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Unread 24-03-2005, 10:00
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Re: Winning Defensive Allaince?

A few more clarifications:

1. I didn't say never play defense. I said 2 offensive robots and a defensive robot will not stand a chance against 3 scorers. Some of the best defensive move I have seen are done by offensive robots. If the other team knows that one of your three robots can't score, they already have an advantage.

2. No way can even the best defensive bot shut down two good offensive robots in eliminations. The scoring possibilities are too great and the advantage goes to the offensive robot. Think of it this way: a two on one in soccer (one goal) is very hard to stop. What if both offensive players had a ball and there were 5 other goals to score into? C'mon, there is no way the best defensive bot will stop two good scorers.

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Unread 24-03-2005, 10:26
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Re: Winning Defensive Allaince?

alright I'll bite Paul. I disagree I think you can have 2 offense 1 defense alliance work well in the eliminations....I have seen defensive robots shut more than one offensive team at a time. Also in a elimination round(s) I watched this exact scenario where three offensive teams were defeated handily by two offensive bots and one defensive. The key was the defensive bot knew when it would and would not get a penalty...moreover they did not have a high torque ability just the ability to cause a nuisance whenever the other alliance went to cap.
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Unread 24-03-2005, 10:39
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Re: Winning Defensive Allaince?

The 3rd round pick in alliance selections is usually going to get you a 1-2 tetra capper. So lets say you could instead pick a defensive player that could negate more than 2 caps from any opponents best capper. You've effectively selected a 3 tetra capper. Right?

I personally don't think the best defense will be played with a strong slow drive base. It will require a good arm that can get in the way of caps and get there fast. Shoving bots in goals only works on some designs. But swatting caps or covering goals works all the time. I haven't seen this "smart" defense played yet.
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Unread 24-03-2005, 11:53
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Re: Winning Defensive Allaince?

Quote:
The 3rd round pick in alliance selections is usually going to get you a 1-2 tetra capper.
Our 3rd alliance member at Detroit (team 301) capped 5 or 6 a match the entire elimination rounds.

I am done debating (not because I don't think it's fun, but because I have to get some real work done) this issue and I will see you all at The Championship. I will give an update from The MidWest Regional on how defensive strategies worked.

-Paul
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Unread 31-03-2005, 20:22
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Re: Winning Defensive Allaince?

[quote=Swampdude]The 3rd round pick in alliance selections is usually going to get you a 1-2 tetra capper. So lets say you could instead pick a defensive player that could negate more than 2 caps from any opponents best capper. You've effectively selected a 3 tetra capper. Right?[quote]


well for one there is only 2 rounds. and for two my team (65) was a SECOND round pick at Midwest and we usually scored about 6 tetras a match. i think our highest was like 8 one time. so that SECOND round pick could get you more then 1-2 tetras.
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Unread 31-03-2005, 20:38
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Re: Winning Defensive Allaince?

Based on the 226 experience, I'm going to say that 3 offensive bots is the key. In the finals in Detroit, we did the best our first match when we went completely offensive, and the next two matches were progressively worse as we stepped up the defense. We won our first match by a landslide, and lost the second one by 1 point, and lost the third by a lot. I know (well, nothing is ever certatin, but I'm 95% sure) that if I had worried less about defense in the second match we would have won it.

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Unread 31-03-2005, 21:09
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Smile Re: Winning Defensive Allaince?

I say that a dream team would be two robots that have the ability to stack with a great defense robot.

In our regional in Arizona we finished third overall and eliminated the alliance made up of the 1st and 2nd place ranked teams in the first round of the finals by playing defense. Our little blue bot has a two speed transmission (fast and faster), it is two ounces less than the maximum allowed weight, our frame was made of fiber glass, it drives with four CIM motors running four 10 inch pneumatic tires, two omni wheels (All wheel drive) and a brake that totally stops the robot from being pushed around but it is small enough to fit trough the field tetras . We had no problem removing tetras from underneath them by pushing them out.

We didn't have problems maneuvering or pushing other robots around. We built the robot with stability in mind and after the competition there wasn't any significant structural damage on the robot. It even kept most of its paint on.

It has an arm that can place tetras underneath the field tetras or pull them out but the pwm cable kept coming off during matches.
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Unread 31-03-2005, 21:23
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Re: Winning Defensive Allaince?

Keep in mind that in order to score most robots require several moments of precise meneuvering. Defense does not require this precision. In Portland we were chosen for our aliance because of our defensive abilities, and we were able to do a reasonably good job preventing the other teams robots from scoring. We just hung out in the center of their side of the field and would dart in and push out of the way any robot that tried to score. The best defense (or offense.... whatever) against this was to try to send the best scoring robot to our half of the field while the other two kept our robot busy.
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Unread 31-03-2005, 23:15
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Re: Winning Defensive Allaince?

During the qualification rounds this is a very vailid strategy, as most alliances wont have more than 1 or 2 strong offensive bots. But during the eliminations, particularly between higher seeds or at more competitive events (such as nationals) it wouldnt hold true. In the Chesepeake regional for instance, team 173 was probably the strongest force in the entire regionals. During the finals, team 122 tried to stop them, and let it more or less become a 2v2 match-up. But 173 was able to slip by the opposing defense enough to let them score enough points and to help their alliance to get solid victories on their way to winning the regional. NO defense is perfect, and any strong offensive robot can beat a defensive robot enough to allow them to score enough points to decide the match. Look at the Colorado regional for another example. Teams 118 and 233 were dominant offensive threats. Every opposing alliance would send defensive robots to try and slow them down. Slow them down they did, but not enough to make 233 and 118 lose a single match during the eliminations. 233 adn 118 would crush any opposing defense and win the regional. The example is shown again in VCU. The #8 alliance managed to advance to the finals by playing very tough defense, but they would lose to a stronger offensive alliance. During the first match of the finals, Team 401 (who was on the winning #3 seeded alliance) was knocked down early, limiting them to the 4 points they scored in auto. In the process the robot that knocked them over was disabled (but not penelized or DQed). This is exactly as if they had both just been in a shoving match for the entire match, and niether scored a point. The #3 alliance would win the match. Proving again, for the 3rd time in the 3 regionals I attended, that offense wins matches and championships.
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Unread 01-04-2005, 21:00
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Re: Winning Defensive Allaince?

In the Waterloo regional, the winning alliance (68, 1305, 1241) was extremely defensive. 1241 actually removed their arm to play pure defense! No scoring whatsoever- simply a pure chassis with an incredible drivetrain.

Truck Town had it's arm go down in the finals at waterloo (unplugged victor... grr) and playing with 2 defensive robots for a game against an almost purely offensive alliance ended marvelously with Truck Town's defensive alliance winning not only that game, but the entire regional as well.

I believe the ideal robot is one that can do both well, defense and offense. A good capper with lots of traction and not too tipsy is a scary, scary robot to play against.
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Unread 01-04-2005, 21:29
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Re: Winning Defensive Allaince?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Copioli
A few more clarifications:

1. I didn't say never play defense. I said 2 offensive robots and a defensive robot will not stand a chance against 3 scorers. Some of the best defensive move I have seen are done by offensive robots. If the other team knows that one of your three robots can't score, they already have an advantage.
Actually, I have to disagree with you there Paul. At BAE, Teams 121 and 126 were both offensive bots. Their partner, 350 was designed to stack, but played defense throughout the entire elimination rounds.

The finals, 121, 126 and 350 were up against 138, 175 (562 subbed in for them in Final 2) and 58. Now all three of those robots were offensive, yet 121, 126 and 350 were victorious. Although 138, 176, 58 and 562 did extremely well and really gave 121, 126 and 350 a run for their money.

a 2-offense/ 1-defense alliance can beat a 3-offense alliance.

My idea of a winning alliance is 2 strong offensive bots, and a 3rd robot that can cap (although not as well as the other 2) but also has a strong enough drive to play defense.
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