Stop The Madness

[Greg Perkins]

this GP fairlyland as you put it is what the first community is based on. If i remember correctly i joined first to learn about real world situations...IE things not going your way, dealing with inherent controversy, and moving on. Building robots was just a ploy to drag me into it. Debating rules is about as low on the totem pole as you can get besides name calling and team bashing. So, i dont know where you all come up with the ideas that the refs are soley out to "break your hearts", we simply do our job....you p*** and moan about why your robot was shut off when your arm is 10' above the players station...oh i dont know, maybe FIRST doesnt want the liablitlty of tetras falling and splitting someone skull open.

Jeez, im not that smart...but with a little common sense i manage to find logical decisions. i think more people should use that, common sense, its a shame to see so much wasted potential due to stupidity.

now for some lighter comments, at Pittsburgh 2 weeks ago, one team floored me with their GP ora. team 395 straight outa bronx blew me away. there were tons of decisions that haad to be made...and wether they went thier way or not, they kept their heads high, and my gosh...if i had a sticker and cookies i would've given all of them to them.


i need to go to bed BLAH

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Collmandoman

seeing as how the game is not rocketscience and the judges should be aware.. you can say whatever you want.. but there is no excuse for this.. people make mistakes-- yep but it seems TOO MANY are being made.. I believe all the head refs are excellent at what they do.. but when I've seen two go to the rule book during a match... kinda makes you think- anyway I like the refs bunches anyway

Have you ever been a referee? Didn't think so. You directly contradicted yourself. Too many mistakes are being made, yet head refs are great at what they do. Please explain to me how that happens. Referees are not walking rule books. Situations arise in which we have to check the rules to be certain we've called a situation right, or to see if we need to call a situation.

You complain that you've seen two go to the rulebook. Well think of how pissed you'd be if you've never seen a ref go to a rulebook. A whole lot more "bad" calls would be made.

Originally Posted by Collmandoman

Many people invest unthinkinable amounts of time into their programs... and to see it waste away by anothers bad call is too say the least frustrating.. how can you just say.. well good try .. we'll come back next year shucks (lets move on to the real world... where I talked to the team that won the sportsman award at a regional whine about a call that didn't go their way)

If you think that all the time spent in FIRST is "wasted away" by not winning, you clearly have absolutely no understanding of the meaning of FIRST.

Ok, lets move on to the real world. Im up for promotion. I think I rightfully deserve the promotion. I don't receive the promotion. I go whining to my boss, about how I deserved it, and he screwed me over, and I hate his guts. I then proceed to whine to all my coworkers. Now what do you think will happen in this situation? Most likely, my boss now hates me, and my coworkers think I'm annoying and a whiner.

Originally Posted by Collmandoman

people vent.. they need to.. here is as good a place as any other.. and some of you have the right idea but most don't.. they are just jumping on the don't express any negative thoughts because that is BAD BAD BAD bandwagon.. which needs to crash very haaard

Ok, you have a point here, but there are appropriate ways to vent, and then there are those that are not.

I don't have any problem with someone that says "Hey, did you guys see that call in the finals at so and so regional? I really don't think Team XXX should have been penalized"

However, if someone says "Wow, the refs at so and so regional are horrible. They made the worst call ever and absolutely screwed Team XXX. I really hate them", that is not an appropriate way to vent, and it is not well received by most people.

In short, having criticism is fine, the manner in which you deliver them is important. There is a fine line between criticism and an attack on a person, or group of persons. Lately the latter has been occuring far more often than the former.

[Jack Jones]

Think it is time that Woody redefine, for some of us, Gracious Professionalism; I’m getting nastygrams from someone’s granny!

Seriously though, it is apparently futile to combat emotional outburst with reason. It is defiantly counter productive to counter emotion with emotions of our own. I suggest we simply “starve the beast.” Just let it go and watch the whiners slide down the recent posts list into the forum for the disgruntled.

[meaubry]

Everyone knows the old saying about opinions and everyone having one, so I will refrain from typing it out.

Point is, though - People just love to let others know what their opinion is.
This website is like a double edged sword, we encourage communication and ideas to be shared and in doing so, those darn opinions slip in.

Just can't seem to figure out how to create a filter that eliminates them.

So, now you all know one of our website inadequacies.

Please use tolerance as appropriate. Please allow the free exchange of ideas. Please continue to share your thoughts, ask questions, communicate and discuss issues. We have rules posted about acceptable behavior. We have moderators in place to assist us when discussions go over the line.

And for a moment, consider what it would be like if you were not allowed to, or provided a place and opportunity - to share you thoughts.

We are providing that place, not FIRST. Our team believes in the mission of FIRST and choose to encourage folks to come to our site "where the community of FIRST gathers to share ideas". Sometimes that includes positive and negative feedback. FIRST can handle constructive criticism - just make sure the method of delivery doesn't foreshadow the message.

We choose not to filter and pre-approve every post. We trust that the community of FIRST can act appropriately, and that they can distinguish between positive and negative comments. Everyone has a choice, they can choose to respond or choose to ignore. Just my opinion, but sometimes it is more appropriate to ignore some of the opinions posted. Sometimes some of us feel compelled to take the opportunity to share thoughts and opinions - and that is also okay too.

Rather than proposing to "stop the madness" - I will simply request that everyone use even more restraint than usual before posting your opinions.

I encourage the communication of constructive ideas on how to make FIRST a better program.

[Steve W]

Travis, stop your whining. If you stop a minute and think of what you are saying then .... OOPS I agree with Travis. I hope that this doesn't negate things he says. There are many who say that the game is a small aspect to FIRST. That it is just a hook to get the kids interested. If you take away that hook how will you get them interested. The Game is an essential part of FIRST. Without it who would pay $6000.00 US (I'm Canadian) to get a kit of parts to build a robot that really has nothing to do.

Many of us who are voicing our opinions are volunteers. I have been a Ref for Hockey, Soccer and Umped Slow Pitch ball. I understand that Refs make mistakes. I have seen some this year at FIRST. Does that bother me, NO. They are calling the game as they have had it portrayed to them. I believe that the Issue is the inconsistent , regional to regional interpretations. There is a lack of written "rule interpretations and non rules" to the teams. Breaking the plane was a written rule last year. This year is was employed by the head ref without a back up by FIRST of what the call is and how it should be enforced. The tipping penalty is called anywhere from a non call, 10 pt, 30 pt, shut down to DQ. Every regional that I have attended (4) has been different. Heck I get frustrated and I don't always have a team there. I you happen to touch a robot in the auto load zone 30 pt penalty but if you flip them over a 10 pt. Where is the logic behind the penalty structure. Touching a robot after a tetra has been loaded? I have seen it called that as soon as the robot starts to leave the zone that they are fair play. I have seen any robot passing through the loading zone as drawing a penalty because the ref could not determine if the robot was in the process of loading. The rules on this seem to be changing week by week, regional by regional.

What is it we are looking for? A clear written form of communication from FIRST on what the rules are and how they should be called. This would take the pressure off of everyone. I don't mean a Q&A response because there are many incorrect responses on the Q&A. We need an update and/or email blast. I know that as an announcer I need to know and understand the rules if I am to do my job well and I am confused. Please let's just have some firm guidelines to follow.

[Cody Carey]

Originally Posted by Collmandoman

people vent.. they need to.. here is as good a place as any other.. and some of you have the right idea but most don't.. they are just jumping on the don't express any negative thoughts because that is BAD BAD BAD bandwagon.. which needs to crash very haaard

to sum this up.. many live in teh GP fairyland where everything is just dandy perfect-- to you I say lets make baby steps toward that goal.. and not assume everyone is perfect
</end of incoherent rant>

I agree. I believe that this thread is referring to one of my recent posts in large.

I would just like to point out that it was the day after the competition and I had only gotten about 3 hours of sleep. I was disappointed and bitter (as I mentioned in my post) and WAS VENTING. Nothing that was said was meant to be in any way offensive to anyone. There were a lot of misperceptions about what I had said, and I have sent apologies to those who I think I've offended. I would also like to point out that only ONE person in this thread even acknowledged the fact that I had posted a question, the rest just jumped on me for posting my thoughts, which is what I thought CD was for. I only meant to let people know my honest opinion, which was rooted in fact. And here, for anyone that I have offended and NOT sent an apology to, I whole-heartedly apologize for what I said to offend you.



306 Capt/driver,
-Cody Carey

[Beth Sweet]

Originally Posted by Cody C

the rest just jumped on me for posting my thoughts, which is what I thought CD was for.

I think that's where a lot of people are confused. CD is not here for you to vent your frustrations to the world. It's here as a networking tool, as a place to go to get and give help to other teams. Yes it also serves as a place to have fun and whatnot, but it's reason is as a resource. You may post your thoughts and that's fine, but you also have to understand that other people may have thoughts of their own. A lot of the people in this organization feel very strongly about many issues. That is bound to happen when you have so many intelligent and educated people in one place at one time. What you have to understand is that when you say something that is merely your own thought, you may be offending a number of people. We all vent, we all have some of "those days." We just need to revamp and remember why we're here in the first place.

[Collmandoman]

Originally Posted by Greg Perkins

this GP fairlyland as you put it is what the first community is based on

kk

[Josh Hambright]

Here are a few of my thoughts on some of the discussion in this thread:
Gracious Professionalism is not a dream. It is one of the core ideas that this entire experience known as FIRST is based off of. It is something that many people hold very dear and live their lives by. It is the magic that makes this organization so special. Its the most inspiring part of this community. It should be the ultimate milestone and goal of everyone involved in FIRST. I dont think people should look at it as some sort of mystical thing that we can only talk about in abstract ways, but rather people should be trying to find ways to make their actions more GP.

I am in no way saying that people should not dissent. After being involved with FIRST for several years now I have seen problems, i have had issues with many things, but rather then just 'venting' about them i have gone out and tried to do something about them. I have volunteered my time and energy at FIRST events. I have spent countless hours in discussions on these forums and in person with people, trying to come up with real solutions rather then just beating a dead horse and pointing out what is often very clear to everyone. There is nothing wrong with pointing out a problem or dissenting. But there is a problem with just being negative and not doing anything about those problems.

For those that try and hide behind the excuse of being passionate, or tired, or posting without thinking. There is a simple solution, Think before you post. Take a minute or a day and think about something before you just post the first thing that pops into your head. Re-read what you are about to post and think to yourself "is this the best way that i could put this?" or "Are people really going to understand what I am trying to say, or is this just an emotional rant that will get lost in the pages upon pages of filler on this site" This forum is not a right, it is a privilage, we have been given the oppertunity by ChiefDelphi to use this site for our community, to share and to help each other out. There is no reason why people think that its ok to just spout off insulting or non constructive posts.

I am not trying to say that anyone is wrong, or at fault, nor am I attacking anyone on here. Merely I am trying to improve our community and trying to get everyone to think about what they are posting and the impact of their actions.

[Greg Perkins]

Originally Posted by Collmandoman

BASED ON...(nobody is this) their is no tolerence here for dissent and it's often very frustrating to read people speak openly about something others disagree with and get based because well... they are different.. this so fundemental I'm going to take nap

I really dont get what your trying to say...maybe if you elaborated more we can have a mature discussion with your different views?

[Katie Reynolds]

Originally Posted by Collmandoman

their is no tolerence here for dissent and it's often very frustrating to read people speak openly about something others disagree with and get based because well... they are different

No. People have no tolerance for rants and destructive criticism. There's quite a difference between:

"Man, your robot sucks! Dude, who did the wiring - it looks like spaghetti in there! Haha, we're so going to OWN you because we used zipties to tie our wires together!"

And

"I noticed your wiring is a little messy. If you use zipties to tie some of the wires together, and route them around the speed controllers - rather than on top of them - everything will look neater and you'll be able to see your controls better!! That's what my team did, and we won the Quality Award at the Midland Regional because our wiring looked so tidy!"

Or
...

"What a stupid call! I can't believe the refs decided the blue alliance won that match! No way should red have gotten that penalty - how stupid! This sucks - I want BETTER refs for next year!"

And

"I realize that it was a judgement call on the refs part - and what's done is done - but personally, I don't think the red alliance should have been penalized for suchandsuch because rule xxx does not really apply in this situation. If rule xxx should apply in this case, maybe it should be reworded to say ...."

Or even
...

"Man did you hear about [important world event]?? How could [important politician] say that!! I hate him - how dumb. Anyone who likes him is a moron and should die. Period."

And

"Did it strike anyone else as odd that [important politician] said that at [important world event]? I wonder where he's getting his information from ... as far as I'm aware ..."

Statements in red are great examples of what is not tolerated by the ChiefDelphi community. If your post looks like a red statement, prepare for the thread to be closed, your post to be deleted or the general community to be upset.


Statements in blue are constructive and/or helpful, and/or leave room for discussion. If your posts look more like the blue statements, you should have nothing to worry about.

[Waynep]

Originally Posted by Greg Perkins

now for some lighter comments, at Pittsburgh 2 weeks ago, one team floored me with their GP ora. team 395 straight outa bronx blew me away. there were tons of decisions that haad to be made...and wether they went thier way or not, they kept their heads high, and my gosh...if i had a sticker and cookies i would've given all of them to them.

Greg,
Thank you for your comments. Our students are grateful for the oppurtunities and people to meet that FIRST provides them. Gracious Professionalism is something that we try to instill in everyone of them, but much more of the inspiration to be GP comes from working with other GPs such as yourself. Great job Reffing down in Pittsburgh. Lots of tough decisions, some calls go your way some don't but the Refs ultimately are right so you roll with the punches. Hope to see you again soon. Good luck to the other teams that competed with us in Pittsburgh for the remainder of the season and Nationals.

Best,
Wayne

[Ryan Dognaux]

Originally Posted by Steve W

What is it we are looking for? A clear written form of communication from FIRST on what the rules are and how they should be called. This would take the pressure off of everyone. I don't mean a Q&A response because there are many incorrect responses on the Q&A. We need an update and/or email blast. I know that as an announcer I need to know and understand the rules if I am to do my job well and I am confused. Please let's just have some firm guidelines to follow.

I fully respect the hundreds of volunteers, refs, judges, and others who work these regional events. Without them, FIRST would not be possible, period.

However, I do not think it is wrong to constructively discuss issues that occur at regional events. This type of discussion leads to solutions and new ideas, and there's never anything wrong with that.

I think an e-mail, or update from FIRST would indeed put to rest much of the negative discussion occurring on this board.

[Collmandoman]

Originally Posted by oneangrydwarf

Here are a few of my thoughts on some of the discussion in this thread:
Gracious Professionalism is not a dream. It is one of the core ideas that this entire experience known as FIRST is based off of. It is something that many people hold very dear and live their lives by. It is the magic that makes this organization so special. Its the most inspiring part of this community. It should be the ultimate milestone and goal of everyone involved in FIRST. I dont think people should look at it as some sort of mystical thing that we can only talk about in abstract ways, but rather people should be trying to find ways to make their actions more GP.

I am in no way saying that people should not dissent. After being involved with FIRST for several years now I have seen problems, i have had issues with many things, but rather then just 'venting' about them i have gone out and tried to do something about them. I have volunteered my time and energy at FIRST events. I have spent countless hours in discussions on these forums and in person with people, trying to come up with real solutions rather then just beating a dead horse and pointing out what is often very clear to everyone. There is nothing wrong with pointing out a problem or dissenting. But there is a problem with just being negative and not doing anything about those problems.

For those that try and hide behind the excuse of being passionate, or tired, or posting without thinking. There is a simple solution, Think before you post. Take a minute or a day and think about something before you just post the first thing that pops into your head. Re-read what you are about to post and think to yourself "is this the best way that i could put this?" or "Are people really going to understand what I am trying to say, or is this just an emotional rant that will get lost in the pages upon pages of filler on this site" This forum is not a right, it is a privilage, we have been given the oppertunity by ChiefDelphi to use this site for our community, to share and to help each other out. There is no reason why people think that its ok to just spout off insulting or non constructive posts.

I am not trying to say that anyone is wrong, or at fault, nor am I attacking anyone on here. Merely I am trying to improve our community and trying to get everyone to think about what they are posting and the impact of their actions.

best post in this thread

Originally Posted by Greg Perkins

I really dont get what your trying to say...maybe if you elaborated more we can have a mature discussion with your different views?

sorry that last post was pretty unreadable~
here is an example... which will be responded to with

Well respected member of cd wrote to me
"if you disagree with me or anybody else here, DONT POST!" -

my rep box is littered with this - there is hypocrisy coating the GP world'
if we were truly GP nothing like this would ever exist.. the fact this forum topic is here shows nobody isn't -- the fact so many are quick to respond to this shows you all aren't
but this isn't bad
and this is my point.. it's a fairyland because many of you assume everyone should be perfect and GP.. and when somebody comes here and posts any dissent many of you get your pitchforks click the red rep button and start a flamewar.. real Gracious professionals don't do that.. if you REALLY care message the person and find out exactly what they mean and talk to them.. not the world about how wrong they were so everyone else can join your mob of witchhuntery -- of course this will never happen so GP is a goal the community can't achieve because many of the members hypocrisies weigh it down
still not 100% readable but then i'm an engineering major

[KenWittlief]

The grace part of GP is knowing and accepting that things WILL GO WRONG

grace is when you deal with someone elses failure and mistakes in a forgiving and generous manner. Thats what bumpers are for, you make a mistake and tap someones car, but nothing bad comes from it.

If you think a ref or someone else has screwed up, thats there the big "G" is needed - you dont get a free pass to rant and rave at the ref in person, or at refs in general or at FIRST on this forum

saying GP doenst apply to you, or to your situation, simply means you are choosing not to be gracefull.

Professional is another manner. If there are problems with the scoring or judgeing, there are ways to address those in a PROFESSIONAL manner.

anger is not professional.