Stop The Madness

[Jaine Perotti]

it's a fairyland because many of you assume everyone should be perfect and GP.. and when somebody comes here and posts any dissent many of you get your pitchforks click the red rep button and start a flamewar.. real Gracious professionals don't do that.. if you REALLY care message the person and find out exactly what they mean and talk to them.. not the world about how wrong they were so everyone else can join your mob of witchhuntery -- of course this will never happen so GP is a goal the community can't achieve because many of the members hypocrisies weigh it down

If someone posts something that you disagree with, how is it wrong to post why you disagree with them? If you believe that dissent is such an important factor in our debate, why are you suggesting that we censor ourselves if we disagree? You say that people should post dissenting opinions, but you also say that those who disagree with them may not post why they disagree. Are you saying that "dissenters" should be allowed to post without being criticized, and those who are part of the "mainstream" should not dissent against the "dissenters"? If dissent should be allowed, why can't someone "dissent" against the "dissenter"? Ins't the definition of "dissenter" relative to what side of the debate you are coming from? I am confused!!

I think you are getting at something though, as much as I tend to disagree with your above statement. I think that you are trying to say that it is bad when attacks have no real basis. For example, I believe that it is wrong to give negative rep to someone just because you disagree with them, even though they presented their opinion in a way that was constructive and respectful. However, I think that you are missing the fact that it is ok (at least in my opinion) to give negative rep to someone if they presented their views in a way that was insulting, negative, and rude.

my rep box is littered with this - there is hypocrisy coating the GP world'
if we were truly GP nothing like this would ever exist.. the fact this forum topic is here shows nobody isn't -- the fact so many are quick to respond to this shows you all aren't

Nobody is perfect. You are right about that. But I have a problem. The rhetoric of your posts suggests that all of the "mainstream" posters on this forum are intolerant of any form of criticism whatsoever. I disagree. Read some of the preceding posts - many of which are eloquent, insightful, and well written. Pretty much everyone believes that it is ok to voice differing opinions. Read Katie Reynold's post. In her post, she shows how there is a clear distinction between respectful, constructive feedback and insulting negativity. Most of the people on this forum are quite tolerant of - and even celebrate -constructive criticism. What people have a problem with is the negative, demeaning, and insidious posts that have been proliferating here lately. Personally, I am FED UP with the "bad" critical posts, and I share the opinion that those who are making these statements need to stop.

people vent.. they need to.. here is as good a place as any other.. and some of you have the right idea but most don't.. they are just jumping on the don't express any negative thoughts because that is BAD BAD BAD bandwagon.. which needs to crash very haaard

to sum this up.. many live in teh GP fairyland where everything is just dandy perfect-- to you I say lets make baby steps toward that goal.. and not assume everyone is perfect

Yes, it is ok to be frustrated. No, Chief Delphi is not the place for venting. Yes, Chief Delphi is a place where problems can be presented for discussion. No, Chief Delphi is not a place where people come to gripe and moan over things they cannot change. Yes, Chief Delphi is a place where we can talk about what has happened in an effort to change things for the better. It is a place where we can freely discuss solutions to problems - so that all FIRSTers may have an even more rewarding experience - so that FIRST can do it's job even better.

There is a subtlety that exists in the realm of dissent - constructive vs. negative. This is something that more people who post on these forums need to realize. I suppose you think I am a member of the "negative thoughts are BAD BAD BAD" bandwagon, because I don't think it is ok to post insulting, angry complaints that cause no solutions to be brought forth. However, I bet you don't know that I am actually on the "constructive thoughts are GOOD GOOD GOOD" bandwagon - a bandwagon which celebrates thoughts that bring problems to the forefront of discussion, in order that they may be solved. SOLVED - not griped over, not cried over, not whined over.

I would like to see more people jump on my "constructive thoughts are GOOD GOOD GOOD" bandwagon. I would like it if more people would respond constructively to threads that talk about problems within FIRST. I would like it if more people would stop posting "frustration vents" inviting others to join in on expressing their woes. We don't need 43453464564 people to complain and cry in order to get things to change. No petition including 3234508234 complaints needs to be presented to FIRST to make them fix things. All we need to do is present problems in a manner which invites SOLUTIONS in order to get what we want. No volume of complaining will ever change things, because good ideas and solutions are the only things which will ultimately improve this world.

That is what my bandwagon stands for. I hope you will all join me.

*gets off soapbox*

-- Jaine

[Collmandoman]

You made many assumptions in your post~ all of which are not true
What I'm getting at is don't destroy anyone that comes here and posts something you disagree with - even if it is questioning someone else maybe in a pushful manner" because all you are going to do is add smoke to a fire- if you contain the problem in closed quarters "pm'ing them or whatever" you can seek a litte more truth and educate them and possibly get them to change their own post.. doing it that way is 1000X better than creating a movement against the individual

[Jaine Perotti]

Originally Posted by Collmandoman

You made many assumptions in your post~ all of which are not true
What I'm getting at is don't destroy anyone that comes here and posts something you disagree with - even if it is questioning someone else maybe in a pushful manner" because all you are going to do is add smoke to a fire- if you contain the problem in closed quarters "pm'ing them or whatever" you can seek a litte more truth and educate them and possibly get them to change their own post.. doing it that way is 1000X better than creating a movement against the individual

I am assuming that you are referring to my post -
Can you tell me what my assumptions were and how they are all wrong?
I would love to understand your opinion better.

EDIT: You said that the following was the incorrect assumption that I made:

I suppose you think I am a member of the "negative thoughts are BAD BAD BAD" bandwagon, because I don't think it is ok to post insulting, angry complaints that cause no solutions to be brought forth

So you do not believe that I am a part of the bandwagon which you disagree with?
I am glad that you feel that we share some common ground. I think that many of us do, even in the midst of all this contention - many of us are merely misunderstanding each other.

[Collmandoman]

+ I suppose you think I am a member of the "negative thoughts are BAD BAD BAD" bandwagon, because I don't think it is ok to post insulting, angry complaints that cause no solutions to be brought forth.

[Jessica Boucher]

We as a group have learned a lot these past five weekends.

But we've got one more weekend coming up. From a competition perspective, the last weekend is usually attributed to having the benefit of watching all the other competitions and being able to act one more time on what they have learned.

In this case, it means that we as a community have one more weekend before the Championship to end this regional season on a high note.

I really do not see many more unique points being brought up in this thread concerning posting behavior following competitions. Matches have ended, medals have been given out. Posts have been created, opinions have been stated, examples have been made, and suggestions have been posted.

There is not too much we as a community can do going into this final regional weekend except look back at what we have experienced and apply what we have learned to make this upcoming weekend the best out of them all. I encourage all 283 teams competing at the six amazing events - including the brand-new Las Vegas Regional - to look ahead to the opportunity that awaits you on Thursday.

As for the rest of us, I am looking forward to watching the FIRST Community on Saturday waiting for these 283 teams to return so that we can give congratulations, make constructive suggestions, and get excited about the Championship.

[Collmandoman]

my opinion... this next week will be the worst-- final week, no more chances

[Steve W]

For the reason of GP and to stop this negative flame war I feel that it is best to bring a halt before more people get upset. I believe that both sides have presented their points of view and in my humble opinion maybe should agree to disagree and move on. If any moderator disagrees please feel free to reopen this thread. It's time to stop the madness.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

I have read this post for a few hours now, and I am still trying to distill the beliefs of some of the posters. It is a really difficult thing to do. But here are some observations from my own perspective for you to ponder...
In the ten years I have been part of FIRST, I have seen what I considered a few bad calls. I felt bad for the participants and the refs alike. Things happen in competition that can't be predicted and humans make mistakes. I have seen teams come close to winning and some were far from winning. I felt bad for those involved and tried to help. I have seen teams who lose at their only regional, when I know deep down a little more practice would have made them truly great.
In those same ten years, I have seen some of the most beautiful interactions of machines and drivers, the melding of combined knowledge, technique, and enthusiasm that anyone could hope to witness. I have witnessed teams in full GP play to win, succeed and fail, play again. I have seen teams assist with repairs on an alliance opponent to insure that team continues to play and lose to that team in a future match. I have seen teams refuse an award because the award presentation described another team and the judges had confused the two. I have seen teams in last place, ecstatic just to be participating and wish I could pick them for a special award.
I have seen the FIRST organization grow from less than two hundred to almost a thousand teams. I witnessed that organization continue through the growing pains and attempt to make this competition the best that ever was or could be and do a pretty good job. The tough part is when you shoot at the moon, sometimes you miss.
If you are angry that reffing is inconsistent, it may be that the organization is trying to modify the way it takes place. You are showing us that the game can be played differently than was originally thought by teams in January. The fixit window, the build period and the 25 pound rule affect the way this game should be moderated or there may be no robots to play the last week or at the finals. I know that many people in this organization are dedicated to making it a better place for competitors. They work tirelessly to improve, predict and repair faults in the rules and the way the game is played. You cannot imagine how much work and planning goes into a single event, let alone thirty and an International Event. Yes there may be mistakes, just temper them with a little understanding and be constructive. And as I write this a Jeff Waegelin quote is at the top on my page, "before you post, ask yourself: Is there a good reason to post this? " Excellent advice. Although there is no physical payment for use of this forum, the fee is thoughtful, constructive and yes graciously professional writing and thoughts.