[moderated]: Worst Call Ever and Congratulations from San Jose

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by CJO

Therefore, yes, a judgement call had to be made, but the call should have been to replay the match, not to call the outcome of a regional.

This is not a precident I would like to set. The only time there should be a replay at an FRC event, is in the case of a technical failure on FIRSTs side of things. If we decide to have a rematch every time the refs need to make a major judgement call, regionals would run from Thursday to Tuesday. There just isn't time for this, and it encourages people to challenge the rulings of the referees. It's the same reason that umpires in baseball will not tolerate people arguing balls and strikes. In the words of Jesse Spano from the classic sitcom Saved by The Bell, "There's no time, there's never any time..." (Sorry, I couldn't resist...)

Originally Posted by CJO

I have a lot of problems with team 254 (among other things, during the playoff rounds I saw four NASA engineers working on their robot)

Funny, seeing four NASA engineers working furiously to help fix a robot is something that I'd find inspiring. Where else can you see "rocket scientists" in action in a pressure packed situation, in person? Doesn't Hollywood make movies about these types of things, albeit on a grander scale? I remember seeing these scenes at my first nationals in 1998, when I was in High School, and thinking "Wow, that's really cool. Engineering looks fun..."

[jgannon]

It's obvious that the original poster has a chip on his shoulder, and more than his share of jealousy. I think that several cool heads in this thread have already sufficiently responded to this, but there's one point that still needs to be addressed.

It's no secret that well-funded teams tend to perform better (though this isn't always the case). 71, 111, and 254 (among others... those are the teams that come to mind at the moment) all have a vast amount of resources available to them, and they make full use of them. Is this a bad thing? I don't think so. You could accuse them of being like the Yankees of FIRST, of buying victories, but if the kids are being inspired, what's the big deal? Nonetheless, this still troubles me:

Originally Posted by ducttapejason

Congratulations to your team, and i hope that you continue to challenge yourselves and the rest of the FIRST community. You are up on a pedestal for a reason, quit looking down at everyone. Reach down and grab others to bring them up as well.

Team 254 won the National Chairman's Award last year. This makes them the ONE team in the whole country that best exemplifies the ideals of FIRST. This award cannot be bought. You can get a huge grant and a whole room full of engineers, but that alone will earn you nothing in the eyes of the judges. How did 254 earn this honor, and how do they continue to deserve it? By reaching down from their "pedestal" of success and experience to help those who haven't been as fortunate in collecting resources. They've started teams in Alaska and Hawaii, and they've mentored several other teams. They are helping to start Utah's first team this year. They mentor FLL teams, support an FLL tournament, and do other community outreach. And, as I'm sure you've seen at any event they attend, they bring a machine shop trailer to help other teams fix their robots, which has saved our team and countless others in competition. If you're still in doubt, you can read their 2004 Chairman's submission. If you must, be jealous of their success. We all wish we could have as many trophies as them. However, don't let your jealousy drive you to discount how they have inspired students and advanced the ideals of FIRST.

[Daniel Brim]

Originally Posted by Karthik

Funny, seeing four NASA engineers working furiously to help fix a robot is something that I'd find inspiring. Where else can you see "rocket scientists" in action in a pressure packed situation, in person? Doesn't Hollywood make movies about these types of things, albeit on a grander scale? I remember seeing these scenes at my first nationals in 1998, when I was in High School, and thinking "Wow, that's really cool. Engineering looks fun..."

Personally, I agree with this, but I see where this could be an issue for him. What I think he is getting at is not all of us have 4 NASA engineers at are disposal. But I bet you, if you go and ask for help, they would be more than happy to give you a hand. Gracious Professionalism runs full-circle.

On a side note, wouldn't it be cool if there was a movie about FIRST?

-Daniel

[phrozen solyd]

Originally Posted by CJO

I have a lot of problems with team 254 (among other things, during the playoff rounds I saw four NASA engineers working on their robot), but I do not believe that they had a hand in throwing the regional.

Thank you for having faith in our integrity, but I would just like to clarify one thing. Our team has only one engineer, Steve Kyramarios, who works extensively with the team. EJ Sabathia, an alumnus of the team; Bill Gold, an alumnus of now-defunct Team 258; and Al Bayer, are all college students, not engineers. Alan Federman, formerly of Team 1043, also helps out.

We do not have 4 engineers, and I can assure you that our students do great amounts of work on our robot. As a student myself, it saddens me that people would attempt to discount our achievements by implying that our students do nothing.

In my eyes, this attitude is the true problem regarding this regional.

Members of both teams 368 and 1097, two of the three teams most adversely affected by the penalty decision, have handled this in an extremely graciously professional manner. In their posts, they have expressed that they accept the decision by the referees, correct or incorrect, because they recognize that FIRST isn't about winning or losing; what's more important is the life lessons that all parties learn. This attitude is to be applauded.

There are 1000+ teams in FIRST, and only 3 can be considered "champions." But the other 997+ teams that also put in months of blood, sweat, and tears to create something that billions of people have never even dreamed of - they are champions too. It is the true mark of the champion to remain professional in both victory and defeat. Teams 368 and 1097 are true champions.

Let's all emulate their example, for their admirable handling of this unfortunate situation is the life lesson we all must learn here.

[Amanda M]

I would like to comment on the integrity of team 254. I understand that this thread has moved on from the team-bashing and has come to a good conclusion regarding the flag question. However, I cannot let such a good team be bad-mouthed in such a way.

Being an alumnus of Team 60, from Kingman, Az, I have had the opportunity to work with team 254 on many occasions. During the 2004 season our students (and I say students because it was, in fact, our students who machined the parts) collaborated and created robots together. 60 doesn't have any engineers, and 254 has 1 and a bunch of college kids. Then, these STUDENTS drove from San Jose to Kingman in early August to build a shift-on-the-fly transmission as a prototype for their bots this year. If anyone needs any proof that these students are working for what they have, they can ask me. I was with them in the shop. We machined and worked for it together.

I've talked to them during the preseason when they are doing presentations, hoping NASA supports them and FIRST for another season. I talked to Adrian while he was putting together his Chairman's Award and Woodie Flowers Award applications for 2004. I know that these kids work hard.

They do have a lot of resources, but they use them for good. They supoprt LEGO League teams, and mentor other teams, supply machine shops. They do everything a good FIRST team is supposed to do, but why do they get the flack?

Is it because they have college students helping them with their robot? And engineers as well?
What is the purpose of a mentor, then, if you can't use them in the heat of the competition? Mentors are there to help you. They are there to have a design in their head, and to help you come to it, or to come up with something better. THEY ARE THERE TO HELP AND TO USE AS SUPPORT, NOT JUST FOR SHOW.

254's mentors (both college students and engineers) and their students work together as one unified team. They are not mentors AND students, but mentors and students working together for one cause, no segregation involved. And that's something every FIRST team should strive for. It's not something you see very often, but when you do see it, it works, and it works well, producing better teams and better bots.

I think that instead of being ridiculed, 254 should be praised for their unity and teamwork.

[Mc Kenna]

I would just like to add that while 254 might have more in the way of sponsors and mentors/college students than other teams i have never seen them do any thing but go out of their way to help all the teams in the area, and any time my team needed help all we had to do was ask and 254 did every thing they could do to help us. they are the ones who bring a machine shop to SVR and SAC, while some people might hold it against them that have the resources to have this shop, they would have them any ways and they deserve credit for the fact they use the resources they have to help other teams. but finally no matter how much money you have unless you can get your team to work together you will not come up with winning robots. And while their mentors might work on the robot, isn't that their job? to help teach students, and from what i have seen from 254 if there were 4 mentors helping on the robot i would be surprised if there were not students helping or learning. i think the reason why 254 get so much flack for any thing they do is people assume they get it all handed to them but thats not the case, at least from what i have seen of their team. After all they did not win Chairman's award for no reason.

[P_Magnum]

Hey 1097, 368, and 852. This is P.MAG of 1097. I was sitting in the stands or filming most of the time at SVR. First of all, I never dreamed that 1097 could finish first in qualifying matches and be finalists; in both the Sac and SVR regional. The conclusion to the SVR regional was a sad one for the red alliance. I admit that I do not agree with the call in any way. But I will not sit here and argue this controversy for hours. The regional is done, over, time to move on!
I would personally like to thank the referees, judges, and volunteers at the SVR regional. I would also like to thank ever team that participated in this regional. A special thanks to 254, 22, and 980 for being good sports about it.
To 368 and 852; thanks for the memories. I will remember those playoff games forever. To 1097, I hope our teams future success is even greater. Even though I am graduating this year, I will do my best to help the team in the future. Don't feel bad about this season's losses. We made history at our school.


P. MAGNUM

[Veselin Kolev]

Ah yes.. I was at this regional. A lot of.. lets say... happened during this regional, and I think the whole 30 point penalty thing was just one of many.

Lots of teams got this penalty. I would say about 99% of them were fair (I might not have been watching for the last 1%) I think this is just very talked about because it may have been the deciding factor in the finals.

Personally, my team (Harker, 1072) lost to the bellermine alliance (254 22 980) fair and square by the rules, but I was rather "anoyed" to say the least. Our first round our robot did nothing. It didn't move. We got owned. The next round we won against bellermine. The last we lost, and were eliminated. I was furious that our robot did not move. Of course I could have jumped on the FIRST people and blamed them blindly for screwing up the radios or something, and we should get a rematch But... I didn't. Because in my opinion our alliances were neck and neck. Well, almost, seeing how they beat us. But I knew that stuff like this happens, and that whining about it will accomplish nothing. It is bad luck. I know that my team has recognition. We put up a good fight, and went down proud (better watch out at nationals, bell boys!)

My point is, the team 1097 alliance technically was beaten fairly by bellerman alliance. In my opinion the 30 point penalty was excessive. But the rule is set before the competition, its just like the motors we get or those wierd tetra things we have to stack... its just another part of the challenge. If students from the team 1097 alliance are feeling any emotion, it should be pride that they ALMOST won. Sure, it kindof sucks, but I recognize your three teams as having awesome robots. Just as awesome as the winner's robots.

If anything is to be done, it should be by the people in FIRST. I think they should take note of this excessively large penalty, and try to avoid this problem next year.

[Bill Gold]

Originally Posted by LittleKesich

But what really angers me is that between the matches we tried to show the refs out video of the match and we couldnt. We has 2 cameras taping the round and both clearly showed that our teams robot never even hit the other teams robot, and that the cheesypoofs team hit out teams bot in the loading zoan under their own power.

I realize that there is nothinbg that can be done about this now, but i would like to make this little fact evident to the other teams incase it occurs again some way or another.

Something that hadn’t been comented on before is that it is against the rules for referees to consult video replays in order to make a call.

Originally Posted by ducttapejason

let me explain my views of 254.

NASA has essentially bought a FIRST team... not a bad investment at all. They put many great, talented, smart, and enthusiastic individuals, such as Jason, and others like Dr. Federman, who just in general kick a lot of $@#$@#$@#, and have done great things for FIRST. There is nothing wrong with this at all.

The problem occurs where I would imagine that NASA would love to parade around their wise investment into the youth of america. This team loves to strut around like the own the place because NASA has made them their poster child. There is nothing wrong with a team being NASA poster child it is in fact great for FIRST... but this is not professional sports. Being a FIRST poster child means building the best robot you can (#254 and every other team), helping out other teams as much as possible (#254 and others), and being placed up on a pillar as a model for others to follow (#254).

Being on #254 it is most likely that you have a great advantage in life. You go to a great school, and play for the winning team. This is what i meant in my original post. The kids of 254 ( or the majority i have seen) need to stop strutting around like the own the place simply because you do.

Keep on winning, keep on helping out other teams, keep on lending out resources, but go out and buy some modesty.

Congratulations to your team, and i hope that you continue to challenge yourselves and the rest of the FIRST community. You are up on a pedestal for a reason, quit looking down at everyone. Reach down and grab others to bring them up as well.

Originally Posted by CJO

I have a lot of problems with team 254 (among other things, during the playoff rounds I saw four NASA engineers working on their robot), but I do not believe that they had a hand in throwing the regional. Still, this was the wrong call. How do I know? In three years of FIRST I have never seen the arena boo. Not just one or two individuals, but hundreds of people. As I noted in my letter to the rules commission, this call was the breakdown of gracious professionalism.

I think it’s pretty obvious that there are quite a few misconceptions about our team; how it’s run, by whom, with what resources, who our team serves, and what we try to accomplish. I must admit that when I was a high school student on The Sea Dawgs and even my first year as a mentor running that team that I didn’t have a favorable opinion of The Cheesy Poofs. I disliked getting beaten by them year after year, but that’s where my actual knowledge of the team ended. After a few years I realized that I really didn’t know anything substantive about the team, and that I needed to let go of my bias and try to get to know people on the team. I was lucky enough to get to talk with a couple of the students and Steve Kyramarios and I confirmed that my original feelings towards the team was absolutely wrong.

Adrian was correct when he said that our team only has one engineer (Steve Kyramarios), and that we have only three college mentors (Al Bayer, E.J. Sabathia, and myself). The 2005 season was both my first season with The Cheesy Poofs (I had run The Sea Dawgs, a Cheesy Poof competitor, Team #258, 2002-2004 seasons) and also the first year that Steve Kyramarios didn’t guide this team’s ship. This season Al, EJ, and I basically ran The Cheesy Poofs’ day-to-day activities with roughly halftime guidance and advice from Steve. The three of us easily put in over 450 man-hours each of robotics work this six week build period, and countless more all through last fall and during this competition period. We Cheesy Poof mentors and students are dedicated to keeping this team on track in terms of spreading the ideals of FIRST, “keeping up with the Jones’” in terms of advances in design and technology, and fielding a competitive team every year.

It’s also incorrect to assume that our team has unlimited funds. Our team is very fortunate as most teams go, this is true, but we have far from a bottomless source of funds from which to draw. We have had mentors and students foot the bill for miscellaneous parts this season, and we haven’t been able to pay for many things we had wanted to use or fabricate.

Our team tries its best to help teams in need. This build period we were pleased to host roughly 15 teams at our lab to allow them to practice on our competition field. We also did some machining for three local robotics teams, two teams in Southern California, and one team in Arizona during this build period. In addition to this machining support, members of our team helped give design advice to, did design work for and otherwise shared designs with more than ten local teams, two teams in the Californian central valley, and those two SoCal teams and Arizonan team. Last fall I taught classes for and helped organize the WRRF Workshops as a member of The Cheesy Poofs. This is all I know of for sure, but I wouldn’t be surprised at all if there was more advice and services that our team had done during the build period that I don’t know about.

In conclusion, coming from a recently folded fierce competitor of The Cheesy Poofs, if I had thought that this team was unethical or somehow not up to my standards (for those of you who know me, you know how strongly I feel about FIRST and how teams should operate) in terms of how it operates and expects its members to behave I would not have joined this team. This year has been a pleasure for me, and I am very thankful to Steve Kyramarios, Robin Kyramarios, Glenn and Krystine Thoroughman, Jim Urhausen, Al Bayer, EJ Sabathia, Matt Yu, John Kiely, Matt Durstenfeld, Justin Madera, Adrian Santos, Ben Margolis, and many others for what has been a huge learning experience for me this year. I hope that I have been a constructive member of the team this year in their eyes.

-Bill Gold

[Cory]

Originally Posted by phrozen solyd

Our team has spent the last 7 years trying to share what we have with other teams around the nation, as well as building a competitive robot.

This statement couldn't be any more true. I can't count how many times Team 100 has needed a part and turned to 254, or had to use their mobile shop, among other things. Anytime anybody needs anything, Team 254 will be there doinhg their best to help. You don't win Nation Chairmans Award for no reason.

One instance in particular stands out to me. In 2004 we went into the last week of build with a robot that was over 30 lbs overweight. When 254 found out, a team member personally called me and offered for us to come down and setup shop in their lab for the last week, so that we could work together to do whatever we could to get underweight. You wouldn't expect that from most people, but that's ordinary for the Cheesy Poofs.

Like Bill, when I started my FIRST career, I too looked at the Cheesy Poofs as being "handed everything" and it was unfair, they couldn't possibly have done any of that themselves, etc, etc.

I have to say, now that I actually know what FIRST is about (not the robot folks, it's just a means to an end) I'm ashamed I ever acted like I did. I'm good friends with members of 254, and I have an insight into what really goes on, rather that what I convinced myself, out of ignorance, was happening.

This anecdote relates specificaly to 254, but the same goes for every team out there. You cannot accuse them OF A SINGLE THING until you've been on that team and know how it works, or been around them a whole heck of a lot. As I've repeatedly said, even if they did have all engineers build it, who cares? if the students are being inspired (and they clearly are) who are you to tell them how to run their program?

If everyone who spent their time criticizing 254 and other successful teams spent half as much effort trying to improve their own, and strive for the goals that the Poofs do, FIRST would be a much better place.

[psquared89]

At the Sacramento Regional this year our pits were right next to the Cheesy Poofs, being on drive team, I spent most of my time in our pits, but it was interesting to me to notice that their pits were frequently mostly empty. They weren't there because they were helping out other teams. They did not seem stuck-up to me, they had one small, modest table with some old awards on it. For all that I'd heard about the Cheesy Poofs, they seemed like a pretty nice team to me. I remember last year all the jokes that our teams had about the announcer being dyslexic (245 vs 254). One quick side comment that I'd like to throw out is if you really want to "stick it to them", beat them on the field, not off of it. To quote lots of people from the legendary "engineering bots" threads, "sure, we get tired of losing to the same teams year after year, but, when you finally beat them, it feels great". I know that for my team, beating the Cheesy Poofs did not have the same significance as it did for our partners, 766 and 1072, but we worked hard to do it, and there's no denying it, it felt great.

[DukesAZ]

Its sad that there are so many people who hold animosity towards Team 254. They are a great team who have worked hard over the years to develop into one of the best teams in the country. NASA didn't show up at Bellarmine one day and drop a team off at their front door as some would like you to think.

To me, its obvious why so many people bash Team 254: jealousy. They are jealous of the successes that Team 254 has enjoyed and they resent the fact that their team has not achieved similar success. So to vent their frustrations, they hide behind a computer screen and log on to an internet forum to take cheap shots (and thats what they are) at an upstanding group of individuals.

I attend a school in Phoenix that is very similar to Bellarmine. In fact, some of our teachers and members of our administration at one time taught at Bellarmine. I know the people at Bellarmine are hard-working and honest who like to win fair and succeed on an even playing field. They would not manipulate a situation to win a regional because that would put a mark on the win. I certainly would not want to win that way.

I did not witness the situation described by ducttapejason. I have however been involved in more than my fair share of bad calls and I did not immediately run to my nearest computer and throw baseless accusations at fellow FIRST teams and FIRST officials. Jason, you should be ashamed.

[White_Orpheus]

I think that what gets people is not just that Bellarmine is very successful, but they are a very affluent school compared to some other high schools. Sure, 254 has a bigger budget than a lot of other teams, and that makes it easy to knock them as a "engineered, NASA poster-child" team, but when it boils down to it, we've all simply been outclassed and outplayed. Even if 254 was running a budget equal to the smallest team in FIRST, they'd be able to pull off a quality robot. I'm sure their large budget helps them widen the already formidible gap in quality of their team to most others, but it isn't the deciding factor. These guys are simply that good, and the criticism leveled at them always will go hand in hand with success. Keep it up guys!

[santosh]

Originally Posted by jgannon

It's no secret that well-funded teams tend to perform better (though this isn't always the case). 71, 111, and 254 (among others... those are the teams that come to mind at the moment)

71 is not a well funded team with their robot. They work incrdibly hard at raising money. A very large portion of their money goes to transporting their enormous not to mention cool team. Thy may have been in the past, but they have had a few issues. Team 71 has to fight as hard as anyone for their money.

I have nothing against team 254 and this segmnt of this post is not for them and I have no clue about their robot/organization except for the fact that thy won the National Chairmans Award last year.

But although FIRST is for inspiring kids to become engineers and for learning how to become a good individual, the competition is still a portion of this organization.

I just feel that the teams should not have other people fixing their robots. They built it, they should fix it. I understan that they will help others with their robot if asked, but shouldn't it be the students first responsibility to try it themselves. FIRST is a learning opportunity. I understand if there is a problem that a student has no idea on how to fix, but atleast they should be there to watch and learn about how to do it.

Cheesy Poofs you guys are great. All your outreach is amazing.

Thr is a reason they have all their money and whatnot. I am basing this off of things I have read in this thread (that rhymed). They had to work for it just like everyone else works for theirs. They were picked for their sponsorship. There is reason for this and it is because they are a great team who deserves what ever they have.

[ScoutingNerd175]

I think that almost every team has experienced what it feels to loose an important match because of a penalty. This is especially true in this year's game where penalties have played a very important role. I know that our team has experienced this. At BAE this year, there were quite a few penalties. In our last qualifying match a 30 point penalty was called against our team because we touched a robot in the human player loading zone. Our robot had been tipped over at this point and we were attempting to self-right, which we did eventually accomplish. Unfortunately, during our attempts to self-right, we apparently touched a robot in the loading zone. The referees then called a 30 point penalty against us causing us to loose the match and dropping us down to 7th seed. No one on our team saw this penalty, but we were all very focused on our robot. I personally (and most of the team members that I have discussed this with) are sure that the penalty did indeed happen. We are sure of this simply because the penalty was called and we trust the refs to do their job.
As for the Cheesy Poofs supposedly having everything handed to them, I doubt that is true. I have not had that much personal experience with them, but I have heard many positive things about them. We are lucky enough to be a chairmans award team, so we get to go to nationals every year, and we have a very good sponsor (Hamilton Sundstrand) and mentors who donate unbelievable amounts of time. These are things that a great many teams do not get. However no amount of funding, school support, and helpful mentors can "just hand" a team dedicated team members who are willing to work hard for not only their own team but others as well. Nobody can "just hand them" team spirit and Gracious Professionalism. These are things that the Cheesy Poofs certainly seem to have. (They do not award the National Chairmans Award lightly)