Disappointing year for Incredible Drive Systems

[sanddrag]

On the same size of field with 50% more robots, I never in my wildest dreams could have imagined that the robots would be so shy about touching each other. This is probably due to penalties but that is left for a different thread.

Right after kickoff I thought since every team had been given a really nice four motor drive system that was relaible and could be working on day one, we needed to have something MUCH better to be on top. Was I ever wrong. I think even just anything that moves can play the game the way it is being played. I never could have imagined so much non-contact action. To me, six motor and/or shifting drives do not seem beneficial at all. I wish I could have predicted this right after kickoff, I imagined double-teaming strategies and everything.

It is disappointing because the teams that strive to create a magnificent drive system are not rewarded because they are not being challenged by other robots in the match. Everyone does their own scoring in their own area and little is done to keep others from scoring.

Some teams strive for maginificence and succeed, but in the end, it does not feel worth it.

[Freddy Schurr]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

On the same size of field with 50% more robots, I never in my wildest dreams could have imagined that the robots would be so shy about touching each other. This is probably due to penalties but that is left for a different thread.

Right after kickoff I thought since every team had been given a really nice four motor drive system that was relaible and could be working on day one, we needed to have something MUCH better to be on top. Was I ever wrong. I think even just anything that moves can play the game the way it is being played. I never could have imagined so much non-contact action. To me, six motor and/or shifting drives do not seem beneficial at all. I wish I could have predicted this right after kickoff, I imagined double-teaming strategies and everything.

It is disappointing because the teams that strive to create a magnificent drive system are not rewarded because they are not being challenged by other robots in the match. Everyone does their own scoring in their own area and little is done to keep others from scoring.

Some teams strive for maginificence and succeed, but in the end, it does not feel worth it.

If you heard about Philly. Now, thats was head to head competition. Almost every team had a defensive robot, pushing and shoving.But along with, CAME A LOT OF PENALTIES

[Eugenia Gabrielov]

I actaully saw quite a few very impressive drive systems at the finals of the 3 regionals I attended: GLR, Midwest, and BMR.

Maybe I'm not too knowledgeable about drives, but I was really impressed with some of the contact action in a few matches, and the lengths robots went to protect goals and stop those crucial shots.

I think as the season develops, and individuals become more well-grounded in their understanding of penalties, there will be a lot more this interaction you're looking for.

- Genia

[BreakDancingCow]

I agree with some of this. Many teams had drives that they did not get to show off. I did see some beautiful omni-wheel drives though that worked very well. Our team built a beast of a drive train. It had a lot of power. We got to show off our pushing skills at Pitt, but in Annapolis, as said before, they were very strict on the defense, so we went to stacking.

[Andy A.]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

Some teams strive for maginificence and succeed, but in the end, it does not feel worth it.

I've seen some pretty magnificent arms. I suspect those teams that put the effort into making a magnificent arm feel that they are worth it.

I for one am thrilled that unlike the last few yeas, this game isn't being decided by which teams can put the most motors on thier drive train.

-Andy A.

[lonewolf13]

I know where you are coming from but I think our team disproves that point. We are an all-around team that can score but is unstoppable because of our drivetrain. being able to run through other robots does happen a lot in our matches

[Travis Hoffman]

Hey, we don't have the strongest drivetrain in the world, nor do we have an ultra-functional arm, but we do have one of the best strategists and best drivers in FIRST, and when they decide to use the bot and arm for defense like they did today at the Greater Toronto Regional, some amazing action resulted. Ask 1114, 1305, and 1511 if they had an easy time going about their business in the Finals.

There were some powerful and/or maneuverable drivetrains in play at GTR, but they proved to not be as much of a factor as they COULD have been, though (1305's bot sticks out as the lone exception in my mind). Heck, even those teams with marginal drivetrain capabilities failed to take advantage of the opportunity for defense when it was warranted. There were many quarterfinal matches where the weaker offensive teams were content to leave their opponents alone, and guess what, they lost in a not so exciting display of action. The let's go offense, everybody cap mentality FIRST is trying to encourage only works well if the alliances are equally matched offensively. Otherwise, like I've been saying, this style of gameplay simply makes it easier for the more powerful offensive teams to cakewalk their way to victory. In the finals at GTR, we recognized we had no chance in heck of matching the #1 alliance's offensive output. So guess what, we played *just a little* direct defense against them, kept the scores low and close, and were within a few tetras of pulling out a victory. We also just happened to create one of the most reportedly exciting finals experiences many of those in attendance had the pleasure of witnessing. So when FIRST says they want more offense, please don't take them literally. If you believe you can match or exceed your opponent's capping capability, then by all means, have a go at it. However, do not automatically lock yourself into this style of play for the entire competition. Greater Toronto proved this to be true - CONTACT IS OK and makes the game exciting, if you're not running around smashing or tipping over everything in sight. And don't be afraid to use those arms to block access to a goal whose ownership is critical to the outcome of a match. Don't push on the offensive bot's arm, but instead, push on the tetra they're holding, keep your arm straight up in the air, or cover the goal with it. Goes a long way to limiting the effectiveness of an offensive power. Here, it helps to have a strong, maneuverable drivetrain in case the offensive bot decides to attack the goal from a different angle or simply go cap somewhere else. Basketball players use their arms for both offense and defense. It's ok for FIRST teams to do the same. Just remember that like basketball, there are penalties involved for using your arms in an improper manner.

That was the greatest, closest, hardest fought finals action I've ever been a part of. Congratulations to the winning alliance for pulling out a great victory, and THANK YOU to the amazing refs who let the contact and action go on penalty free. No tippping. No ramming. Just excitement. Offense AND Defense. It was a special sight to see.

[Jeremiah Johnson]

Originally Posted by Andy A.

I've seen some pretty magnificent arms. I suspect those teams that put the effort into making a magnificent arm feel that they are worth it.

I for one am thrilled that unlike the last few yeas, this game isn't being decided by which teams can put the most motors on thier drive train.

-Andy A.

I am always amazed by how much pushing power a team can get out of a drive train. But I do believe that the motors can be used in a more usefull manor. Like making a more maneuverable maching or a more reliable arm (No pneumatics).

Ah... this year we used the same drive system as last year. A three-wheel design with all three driven and the rear one steered. We accompanied it with an electronic differential which drives two wheels while the other one goes in reverse during the turning process. This made for high maneuverability and some pushing power. The extending body helped a lot with the stability issue. We tipped only once when I kept driving against the wall. And we had a tetra hanging out front. Playing defense was not part of our strategy at anytime.

[Vin211]

Believe, I have been in the boat of where I thought good engineering would have a team prevail. Sometimes the least likely teams are the actual prevailers. I have always learned, you can always do so much better next time around. Always learn from mistakes and study weaknesses. I have always believed, if you put your scouting team to work you will have good results.

My opinion is to have your scouts actually take down as much information whether it be in photography, video, or just pencil/paper. Carry this information over to the next year and work off that. See which teams have stayed consistent over the past couple years.

BAM!

[mtaman02]

I wouldn't be too sure about the non-contact At the NYC Regional there was 75% contact or a defensive stratedgy - For instance I believe it was the last match for friday and one of the teams on the red alliance mis-programmed or INTENTIONALLY programmed their robot for a Head on collission at Full Speed. Boy oh boy did that team hear it at the end of the match The official ruling was it was intentional and the team was dq'd for the match =\ after that auton period it was nothing but defensive moves throughout that match. And on Saturday of the event one of the red alliance robots decided to knowck over all the blue alliance robots in my eyes legally (they were not pushing high at all if anything the wedge on the robot flipped over the blue alliances) and yet the refs called for a dq on the team. =\ oh wells but getting back on topic there was many offensive and deffensive stratedgies at the regional.

[Jeff K.]

We had some contact during the Finals today, and having the refs make an error in the score. But our worst hit was on Thursday on the practice day, I believe our first match, one of our alliance members rammed into our side by accident and our chassis was bent. But today, there were some calls like pinning for 20 seconds that weren't called, but rather just warned. There were also loading zone penalties that weren't called. But overall, Southern California Regional was very cool. Our alliance partners were awesome. Thanks to 599 and 702. You guys are awesome and we look forward to seeing you guys at Atlanta or other competitions in the future. There were also some agressive teams in the final match of team 69, 330, and 634 against 980, 968, and 22. But congrats 69, 330, and 634 on winning.

[RogerR]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

On the same size of field with 50% more robots, I never in my wildest dreams could have imagined that the robots would be so shy about touching each other. This is probably due to penalties but that is left for a different thread.

Right after kickoff I thought since every team had been given a really nice four motor drive system that was relaible and could be working on day one, we needed to have something MUCH better to be on top. Was I ever wrong. I think even just anything that moves can play the game the way it is being played. I never could have imagined so much non-contact action. To me, six motor and/or shifting drives do not seem beneficial at all. I wish I could have predicted this right after kickoff, I imagined double-teaming strategies and everything.

It is disappointing because the teams that strive to create a magnificent drive system are not rewarded because they are not being challenged by other robots in the match. Everyone does their own scoring in their own area and little is done to keep others from scoring.

Some teams strive for maginificence and succeed, but in the end, it does not feel worth it.

you're right in one respect; anything that moves can play the game. it was designed that way. but it takes something more to excel at it.

in the past a powerful drive train could probably win you a match. this year's game demanded more from a drive train. it has to be maneuverable, controllable, fast, and able to stand its ground. look at 67, 71, and 111. those are some of the most magnificent drive trains i've ever seen. likewise, i've seen very few matches where everyone was "shy about touching each other". but they are darn careful. in this game, knowing when and how to play defense is just as important as how much power you can put on the floor.

[Jojo2k1]

Thanks to 1138 and 702. You guys were great. This is is for us this season, but we hope to see you next year. I agree with RogerR this years game needed more from the drive system than just power. Our system's maneuverable, controllable, and fast, but against defense robots we had trouble staying under control. Also we kept riding up on other robots in certain matches in Sacramento and SoCal.

[Waynep]

Originally Posted by mtaman02

I wouldn't be too sure about the non-contact At the NYC Regional there was 75% contact or a defensive stratedgy - For instance I believe it was the last match for friday and one of the teams on the red alliance mis-programmed or INTENTIONALLY programmed their robot for a Head on collission at Full Speed. Boy oh boy did that team hear it at the end of the match The official ruling was it was intentional and the team was dq'd for the match =\ after that auton period it was nothing but defensive moves throughout that match. And on Saturday of the event one of the red alliance robots decided to knowck over all the blue alliance robots in my eyes legally (they were not pushing high at all if anything the wedge on the robot flipped over the blue alliances) and yet the refs called for a dq on the team. =\ oh wells but getting back on topic there was many offensive and deffensive stratedgies at the regional.

According to rule G25 and from most other Regionals, any wedge that goes under a robot and tips it is illegal and should be DQed. Tipping a robot with a wedge is just as bad as those that ram at high speed. Please note that pushing low with a flat surface and pushing low and upwards are different. Robots with a wedge please be cautious and gracious when you play, all the teams have worked hard to play and should be allowed to play the entire match with their robot upright.
-wayne

[Ali Ahmed]

I somewhat disagree with this post. I feel that there was plenty of times when we used both high and low in one match. If we had to "go long", or rather go across the field, we would use high but if a robot tried to get in our way we would shift into low, on-the-fly by the way(a little robot show of ), and get them out of our way.