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  #31   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-04-2005, 18:45
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Re: Winning Defensive Allaince?

L.A. Regional. Eliminations. QF1-2. Red won first round with no defense against them. Red: 3 good cappers. Blue: 3 mediocre cappers. Blue sends one robot (851) to disrupt Red's good cappers. 851 somehow tangles up with 330. 330 pulls 851 (defensive) halfway down the field before tipping backwards. The tip disentangled the two bots, and 330 gets up and scores some tetras. 851's defense didn't work. Red won.

Final rounds: 3 good cappers vs. 3 more good cappers. One of Blue's good cappers tries defense. Red won.

My point is this: 2 good cappers and one defender will most likely lose to 3 good cappers.
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Unread 03-04-2005, 18:52
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Re: Winning Defensive Allaince?

We learned the offense vs. defense lesson the hard way in Sacramento. Our alliance had 2 good cappers, and 1 team with a swerve drive which we sent to play defense.

Result - we lost to the alliance of 245, 766, and 1072, because we couldn't keep up with their offense, even though our defensive bot was harassing them.

In the Silicon Valley Regional, the finals were played between two alliances; all 6 robots could cap at least 4 tetras a match on average.
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Unread 03-04-2005, 19:00
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Re: Winning Defensive Allaince?

At LSR our alliance (#6) did do just that we had two robot that could cap very well and one defensive robot that did not even have an arm it was just a very powerful low robot. In our first elimination round this strategy paid off extremely well because our defensive robot stopped the other team from scoring like they normally would and we won both of our matches against the #3 alliance. However, in the semi-finals the #2 alliance had a very good strategy against and we made some crucial error and ended up loosing the match. Even though we lost, I still believe that having a very good defensive robot can have a very high payoff because with out that defensive robot on our alliance I am not sure if we would have won our first elimination round.
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Unread 03-04-2005, 20:19
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Re: Winning Defensive Allaince?

I think it is hard to really debate on this topic. I think given all the teams in the world, if you could pick from all of them, the 3 offensive alliance would win. I base this on the three regionals I saw, and for several reasons.

1. 3 very strong capping teams, can cap anywhere at any time... if one defender is blocking one of the 3, the other two can pick up the slack.

2. Any offensive robot can play defense at any time. All you have to do is get in the way of another team, or put your arm over a goal, or steal a tetra away from another team... and you have defense.

But there is a problem with this, that has already been mentioned. After you get through the top two or three selections in the second teams selected, there are generally no really strong cappers left... and the lower alliances are forced to select a good defender.

This happened to us in rochester & cleveland, we were the 7th & 5th alliance captain, and were left with dbots to choose from. And we lost both times, because 3 cappers could always out score us.

However, in toronto, we were selected by the 1114 & 1305 pair, and all three of us could consistantly score 5-6 tetras per match. We were unstoppable, because each of us could score well, and all of us played defense at one time or another. We guarded the center goal twice, turing other teams away... and our teammates often got in the way of other robots trying to score, alll while the other two of us would run around scoring like crazy.

So my vote, for what it is worth, this year is on the 3 scorers.
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Unread 04-04-2005, 02:23
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Re: Winning Defensive Allaince?

Just my experience from the finals of the Las Vegas regional -

We were against 2 great cappers(987 and 64) and a defensive robot (1527), and I would say from our standpoint the defensive robot gave us the most trouble. Not saying the cappers weren't on our minds, but the defensive bot is the one who we worried about. In round 1, they pushed us over legally (I don't know how we actually tipped though...first time we have been knocked over when pushed from the bottom), from which we never could recover. In the second match, they continued to present problems to our alliance. I didn't feel confident commiting a robot to counter them, because I felt we needed our whole alliance in there capping. It presented an interesting situation, and overall, they won.
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Unread 04-04-2005, 17:30
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Re: Winning Defensive Allaince?

Generally the success of the defensive robots is when an alliance only has 1 really strong offensive bot. The other two are just ok. But if you face an alliance comprised of 3 strong offensive bots, or at least 2, like you will encounter at championship or the stronger regionals, a dedicated defensive bot will not do as well. A defensive bot can far okay if it just has to concentrate on one opposing bot, but when two or more threats are present on the field its efficiency is reduced. If it tries to defend two bots it means it will have to spend more time running in between the two, which will lead to more wasted time. It also increases the chance of penalties as your robot will be speeding at high speeds twoards other robots and loading zones.
But if you decide to focus on one of the offensive bots, the other will probably be able to pick up the slack.
The Colorado regional is probably the best example of this. When teams tried to hinder both 233 and 118 they ended up leaving one, or both, undefended for long enough for them to score at least one tetra. When they tried to focus on one (usually 118), the other would score several tetras and would handily beat the other alliance. Most the matches werent even highly competitive.
Look at what Team 71 did for more proof. They won purdue by basically forcing the opposing defenses to defend them, and allowing their alliance partners to score in their place.
Having a dedicated defensive bot just means you hindering your own offense. You can play almost as effective, if not more effective, defense by just hindering an opposing robot when they are in the same area as you, ect. Keep in mind, many times the best defense is offense. When a defensive bot screws up and lets an opponent cap, he can't reclaim the goal (or if he can, not as quickly). But an offensive bot can quickly reclaim the goal. Many of the best alliances did not play much defense at all (in the sense that this thread has been talking about), rather they just broke up opponents rows with their own caps.
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Unread 07-04-2005, 10:00
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Re: Winning Defensive Allaince?

What I don't understand is why would a lower seeded team (having less good capping robots to choose from) pick a weak capping robot and tell them to play defense when they could choose a strong defensive robot to take care of the highest scoring robot (possibly 2 of the higher scoring robots) on their opponent's alliance?

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