REWARD OFFERED: A CAPPED VISION TETRA ON THE CENTER FIELD GOAL

[JoeXIII'007]

Originally Posted by thoughtful

i would say there are about 6 teams that have a realistic possibility of doing this at the nationals. However, these Brilliant teams also need a tad of luck at thier side to accomplish this in the 15 seconds. I think that the probability that we see this happen at the nationals is 0.167.

Luck, hope, prayer, and a lot of support. Optimism is mandatory, for it is that which usually makes it happen. Don't lose it.

[Wayne C.]

Well- the regionals are all over- over 30 tournaments and still no capped center goal.

Am I taunting?- yeah maybe a little.

I've seen several VERY close tries. Its pretty amazing to watch.

I'm surprised nobody has drop down guides to center the robot on the middle goal when they go to place.

Of course once you get it on there for 9 pts. you need to make sure you don't get a 10 pt deduction for some silly penalty.

In any case, the offer still stands. The TIKI is waiting. And the Championship is just days away.

WC

[FDAapproved]

We were really pulling for you, I'm almost certain if you were able to attend nationals you would have gotten that tiki trophy.. Someone should really post a picture of how it was.

I believe someone got a picture of our cap somewhere in the forum, the plank of spray painted wood kept the tetra from falling into place, but it was close enough to make our team go crazy with joy, espically our head teacher....(hehe) I am very proud of our programers

(I would like to note that it was occasionally distracted by the yellow and black caution tape that was around the gates onto the field.)

Although we are sure that this was a distraction to the camera, we are now debating if it is reasonable (and legal) to request for the removal of the tape (maybe a substitute could be put down?) The removal of the tape could be the deciding factor for any team at nationals that is using the camera and we want them to have the best chance to make history!

[dradius]

Originally Posted by FDAapproved

I believe someone got a picture of our cap somewhere in the forum, the plank of spray painted wood kept the tetra from falling into place, but it was close enough to make our team go crazy with joy, espically our head teacher....(hehe) I am very proud of our programers

Although we are sure that this was a distraction to the camera, we are now debating if it is reasonable (and legal) to request for the removal of the tape (maybe a substitute could be put down?) The removal of the tape could be the deciding factor for any team at nationals that is using the camera and we want them to have the best chance to make history!

the deal at the houston regional occured when i asked the head referee (northumberland) before the beginning of our match. he said that it had been there the entire time and nothing could be done about it--at the time, true. however, in future competitions, i feel it can be argued that the caution tape, though a safety-cautious and necessary part of the playing arena, is not part of the playable playing field. thus, it poses a distinct distraction for the robot which itself alone cannot accomodate for. because of this, there are potential problems for robots who, in normal curcumstances, using the camera, would have little issue tracking.

i think a possible change in caution tape color should be an appropriate accomodation for those who need it, or possibly covering that one line of tape that is in direct contact with the tip of the loading ramp. realistically, it doesnt change anything for the non-camera-using robots, but poses a significant threat and possible malfunction for those who strive for optimum use of the onboard vision system.

[FDAapproved]

Originally Posted by dradius

however, in future competitions, i feel it can be argued that the caution tape, though a safety-cautious and necessary part of the playing arena, is not part of the playable playing field.

Very true, If the tape isn't included as a necessary part of the field, it is an accessory for safety and there shouldn't be any reason against replacing it with a different color tape.
If only we had thought of that before the regional started.

[Beta Version]

by the way, if you want to see a video of 624 capping the goal, and another close atteempt at the houston regional, you can watch it at our site, www.cryptoniterobotics.com (you can also see me and my awesome human-player skills)

[ldeffenb]

Originally Posted by Beta Version

by the way, if you want to see a video of 624 capping the goal, and another close atteempt at the houston regional, you can watch it at our site, www.cryptoniterobotics.com (you can also see me and my awesome human-player skills)

Thanks for the videos! I know that our team would have gone absolutely nuts (along with the crowd) at Central Florida Regionals if we had been *that* close!

Great Job! Looking forward to seeing one or more of us actuallyl do this multiple times in Atlanta (assuming you're able to compete there!).

Lynn (D) - Team Voltage 386 Software Mentor and Coach - Two Reasons to *REALLY* want a Vision Cap!

There were no Autonomous vision tetra caps at Palmetto. I was the announcer, and I would have remembered such a feat. We had some contenders, however.

Team 281 (EnTech) has a program to drive straight forward with the arm out and then lift whatever it might have nabbed and place it on the center goal.

At Palmetto, they got a vision tetra at least twice. The first time they got it over the goal, and were about foot to the left the second time. They did not complete the cap either time.

342 can cap with a starting tetra in autonomous mode. I think they did it twice at Palmetto.

[Joe Johnson]

When I saw the kickoff, I was excited.
When I read the documentation, I was nervous.
When I saw 66 at GLR, I was hopeful.
When I saw a mere shadow of a speaker high in the air doom 66 at WMR, I despaired.
Given the translucent roof of the Georgia Dome and the vagaries of sun position, cloud cover, etc. I predict there will be no team that caps 2 matches in a row and no team will cap the center goal, period.

I WANTED there to be cappers at the Championships, but it is just too hard given hardware, software and timing the constraints teams are under.

Early in week 1, I predicted at most 5 Vision-based capping teams at the Championships... ...sadly, I now think this was too optimistic.

Calling 'em as I see 'em...

Joe J.

[Dave Flowerday]

Originally Posted by Joe Johnson

I WANTED there to be cappers at the Championships, but it is just too hard given hardware, software and timing the constraints teams are under.

What really concerns me is that they really did give us good tools this year. Our team has the camera working extremely well. It tracks with amazing reliability both green and yellow. Our primary difficulty is in our robot's design which requires us to approach the tetra from the side, parallel to one of the tetra sides (think about that one for a while... it's really difficult!), and the fact that our practice robot and real robot don't behave the same. Like I suspect is the case for many other teams, our practice robot has capped the center goal dozens of times.

I think this is something FIRST needs to think about. They gave us great tools this year for autonomous, yet basically no one can do it (even if a few manage to make it happen at the championships, it's still essentially 0%). The only way we're going to see better looking autonomous modes in the future is if they can find some way to give the software guys on all these teams some time to work with their real robot. Just like every other team I'm sure, our software team only had a day or two to work with our completed "shipping" robot. If every team had had an additional week to work on software for their competition robot, I think we'd see more capping happen.

I wonder if it would ever be possible for FIRST to add a rule allowing teams to keep their robots for an extra week but only allow software to work on it? Unfortunately, this is probably too unenforceable and would leave a large opportunity for abuse, and would extend the build season which a lot of people are (rightfully) opposed to. Unfortunately I just don't see how else autonomous modes can improve. Anyone have ideas?

[Tom Bottiglieri]

Originally Posted by Dave Flowerday

I wonder if it would ever be possible for FIRST to add a rule allowing teams to keep their robots for an extra week but only allow software to work on it? Unfortunately, this is probably too unenforceable and would leave a large opportunity for abuse, and would extend the build season which a lot of people are (rightfully) opposed to. Unfortunately I just don't see how else autonomous modes can improve. Anyone have ideas?

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...&highlight=FPG

This wont give programmers anymore time with the bot, but if they dont have to debug all the systems or worry about fixing problems in their custom code, they can spend more time tweaking the real bot for competetion.

[Chris Hibner]

Originally Posted by Dave Flowerday

The only way we're going to see better looking autonomous modes in the future is if they can find some way to give the software guys on all these teams some time to work with their real robot. Just like every other team I'm sure, our software team only had a day or two to work with our completed "shipping" robot. If every team had had an additional week to work on software for their competition robot, I think we'd see more capping happen.

I agree with you, Dave. The time constraint WAS too short when all we had to worry about was operator control. Now it's WAAAAYYY too short. I was just thinking the other day about how much different things are now with autonomous control. We now have 3 times as many people working on controls than we used to have before there was an autonomous portion of the game.

One possible comprimise is to give teams the control systems and sensors one or two months in advance. If we had that extra time to work with the camera, I'm sure we would be capping vision tetras in autonomous. We decided that the time wouldn't allow it so we went with a more tried and true autonomous method.

[PURPLE!]

Want to know something really sad? The conversation that started with FDAapproved and went on with Dradius and BetaVersion most likley happened when they were in the same room during study hall. (Yes we have a robotics study hall). e_e they may be arguing on the fourms but the would be sitting right next to eachother in the classroom....

[Lost_Era]

The reason team 281 decided just to try to cap the center (whether there was a tetra or not) is simply because we didn't believe we would have time to do otherwise. We do have code to use the camera and pick up and deliver either of the "close" tetras from any starting position, but, because of time constraints, we decided not to use it. We also determined the odds of a tetra being in one of the two spots in front of the center starting position to be 13/28.

[Dave Flowerday]

Originally Posted by Chris Hibner

One possible comprimise is to give teams the control systems and sensors one or two months in advance. If we had that extra time to work with the camera, I'm sure we would be capping vision tetras in autonomous. We decided that the time wouldn't allow it so we wen't with a more tried and true autonomous method.

That's a really good point. I'm not sure it would have made the difference for our team, but I'm sure it would have helped out a lot of other teams if they had had the camera ahead of time and had already "trained" it to follow objects. Plus, you'd know up front (at the beginning of the build season) what it's capabilities were and therefore have a better idea of whether or not it's worth pursuing. I don't think it'll solve the problem but it would be a big step in the right direction.

Originally Posted by Tom Bottiglieri

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/s...2&highlight=FPG

This wont give programmers anymore time with the bot, but if they dont have to debug all the systems or worry about fixing problems in their custom code, they can spend more time tweaking the real bot for competetion.

That's a decent idea, but I just don't think it'll solve the problem. No matter how well the code is written or how early, when it comes down to it you always need time on the actual hardware (i.e. competition robot) to test it, and I think that is the limiting factor for most teams. As it stands, the mechanical groups will take up nearly every minute of build time getting the robot designed and built (and they need it, too!). Unless there is some way to guarantee the software people time to test and debug their code on the competition robot I just don't see autonomous improving much from what we've seen in the last few years.