When do mentors go too far?

[KathieK]

A better way for me to state my question (and this is a general question that I think a lot of mentors would ask) would be, "How can I, as a mentor, inspire you, as a student, to take on the not-so-glamorous tasks?" It's so easy for us to take over and "do it myself" - it's very hard to ask for volunteers, have no one step up, and then let something go undone because no one volunteered to do it. (I know, I know, just because we did something in the past doesn't justify doing it this year or next year...)

But as a mentor this is a learning process for me, too, and I'd love some ideas for getting more involvement from the students on the things that no one wants to do....

[Spikey]

I completly agree that mentor involvement is crucial to any team. Without mentors I would have never have learned how to design a good wiring or pneumatics system for our robot. When mentors are serving as teachers and advisers to the students who then experiment and use that knowlege that they have gained from the mentor to build the robot, that is what I belive to be the spirit of FIRST on the robot side. Mentors do a lot of behind of scenes work like planning for the regionals and other things that most students have no involvement with. I'm not saying that that is a bad thing, students should learn organizational skills as well. I am more strictly speaking from the robot side of things, the Toy Train analogy by the previous poster seems to sum up best what I am trying to get across about the robotics experience.

[dhitchco]

What to do when mentors go "too far".

1) Be sure to actively TALK and roll-up-your-sleeves if you want to take a leadership role and that action, all by itself, will give the signal to the mentor(s) that you want them/us to back-off.

2) When you go to work in the "real world", you will find the full spectrum of very passive managers to very active "micro-managers". You will have to deal with both styles.

3) In any mentoring/parental activity there is a fine line between too much hand-on nurturing and too much hands-off. Just be sure to communicate your own needs and desires clearly. I suspect most mentors, since their involvement is after-work and voluntary would be very happy to see the students do more.

In my rookie team's case, we did have many nights during the build season where not everyone was involved in doing something. I suspect we could have done more of the spirit & fundraising activities in parallel each evening to the actual build.

[Alexander McGee]

These threads have been around a lot this season. Am I the only one noticing this?

On one side, we have the distressed students trying to understand how some teams operate. What appear to be “engineer built” bots are at every regional, and generally place highly at nationals. On the other hand, we have the dedicated engineers and mentors who make all this happen, defending their level of involvement.

To the students: take a good look at the teams that you think are built by engineers. Sure, there are some teams where the students hardly touch the robot at all. We have all witnessed the familiar scene in the pits where the students stand idly by while three or four adults are working on the robot. However, many very excellent teams have major, if not complete student involvement. Keep that in mind. Talk to these students on these teams; find out what they learned, what they know, and how they “did it”.

To my fellow mentors and engineers: Keep doing what you are doing, but take a look at yourself along the way. There is a reason that this is called a “high school” robotics competition, and there is a reason that high-school students are required to drive the robots. Inspiration is one thing, but handing students fabricated parts and having them bold them together is not what this is all about. Let them get their hands dirty, let them do the engineering. It is, after all, just a game. Let the students be involved. How much they do is up to you, but don’t ever withhold an opportunity to teach a student something new. Don’t let this become a hobby, do it for the right reasons.

See you all at nationals!

[Dave Flowerday]

Originally Posted by magnasmific

Don’t let this become a hobby, do it for the right reasons.

I wasn't going to post in this thread again, but I couldn't pass up the opportunity to respond to this.

Almost any reason for a mentor or engineer to get involved with this program is the right reason. You say "Don't do this as a hobby" yet what a lot of people don't realize is that if this program wasn't fun and exciting (like a hobby) for the adults as well as the kids then it wouldn't exist. I believe the whole reason FIRST is as successful as it is is because the adults involved do think of it as a hobby, with the added bonus that they get to do this great thing for all the kids in the program as well.

If all the adults who are now on FIRST teams were willing to put this much time and effort into making sure high schoolers get exposure to science and technology careers just for the sake of doing the right thing then Dean and Woodie wouldn't have had to dream up this competition in the first place. The fun, exciting, and challenging aspect of this program is what keeps the adults interested and involved just like the students.

If every machine in FIRST was completely student-built using whatever equipment students have available to them, this competition would not be nearly as exciting as it is now. Dean and Woodie knew this when they created FIRST, otherwise they would have just asked companies to pony up money and supplies instead of engineers and access to machine shops too.

handing students fabricated parts and having them bold them together is not what this is all about

What exactly gives you the right to make this statement? What if I said that letting students build the whole robot without any adult help (a fact which many teams actively brag about) is not what this program is about? The message that FIRST repeatedly sends us is that anything which is done to expose high schoolers to science and technology is what this program is about. What we're really trying to accomplish is to get all the high school kids here to go to college, study these fields, and get jobs in these fields. How that gets done really isn't that important. Some teams let the kids build the whole robot without any adult oversight, some have lots of engineer help with design and fabrication. As long as the students on either style of team are inspired to pursue a career in science or technology then the mission has been accomplished.

[Chris Hibner]

I promised that I would stay out of this one, but I just couldn't do it. This thread comes up at least twice a year and it is the same arguments all of the time. In that spirit, I'm going to make this same post that I've already made a half dozen times. Here it goes...

There is nothing wrong with having engineers take over certain aspects of the robot, or even entire robots. Here is why:

This program is meant to INSPIRE students to go to college for engineering. One of the best ways to do that is to create something in front of them that is incredibly cool yet way over their head. If the students say, "that is SO COOL", and "I wish I could do that", then the program is a success. If enough students wish they could do something that cool, then act on it (by going to college), then this program is a success.

That being said, everyone is different. Some students need the hands-on experience to be inspired. Some are more inspired if they are in awe of what they see and can't possibly imagine that a college education can teach them to do that.

I like to do a little of both. Let the students get their hands on the robot and gradually teach them and make them more able to do more on their own. While that is going on, I like to have the engineers doing something that has a big WOW factor that is later explained to the students how it was engineered, and what school subjects are used and how they were applied (hopefully inspiring them to find school fun and useful).

The end point is that a lot of inspiration can be had on both ends of the spectrum. I don't ever want to see the highly engineered robots go away; after all, that's what makes all of the people in the stands say "WOW - I wish I could've done THAT!" To me, there's a lot of inspiration in that.

[Andy A.]

Dean Kamen, among others have wieghed in on this before. I can't think of a better way to put it. So I'll let that speak for me.

Portion of a Speech by Dean Kamen
1998 FIRST Competition Kickoff Workshop, January 10, 1998
The Center for New Hampshire, Manchester, NH
[imperfectly transcribed from a videotape]
copyright 1998 PNHS and GMPT

"I don’t know how many ways to try and continue to say it. . . What this organization is about is not education per se. I heard a lot of people, even last night, and I think they mean well, and I understand what you’re saying, there needs to be a balance, but I heard people saying "well sure that other team did great, but thats because the engineers did all the work. The kids didn’t build the robot." I have to tell you, FIRST is not an educational institution. Its okay if the kids build the whole robot, its okay if they don’t touch it. FIRST ought to be to education what the NFL or the World Series is to little league."


-Andy A.

[Jay Trzaskos]

handing students fabricated parts and having them bold them together is not what this is all about

Sorry but I have to post about this statement too. I am High School sophmore and this year, as you may or may not know, 229 worked with the Thunder Chickens(217) to create a tower that worked to both teams advantage. While we students didn't fabricate this extendo, we had a lot of input on what we wanted it to do. We also helped to design some of the features of this tower. Sure there might not have been as much input as previous years due to the distance between the 2 teams and such. Yet we still put together a robot with a lot of student designs and ideas in it. There will, for as long as i am on this team, be a lot of student fabrication, design, and build put into 229's robots.

We don't have your GM engineers or profesional machinists, we have a bunch of college kids and high schoolers building a robot. In the end I think I like this better, these college kids are always open to our ideas and designs. They stress the importance of student ideas during the design and build process. Example: I had designed a gripper for our robot this year. At the meeting when i was going to present it, we were shown a design one of the college kids came up with. I told the mentors how much better I liked this design, but they still insisted on taking the time to go over the design with me. Me and a few other students then helped to make the lance design we are now using better. My original idea may not have gone on the robot, but alot of other ideas of mine went into making our lance/robot better.

Last year i got all excited about a couple of chain tensioners i had designed/built/assembled for the robot. This seemed to me to be a huge acomplishment for me as a freshman. After we got the robot back from Nationals I sat and stared at it. I could list off all of the parts i helped to design/build/assemble/fix.

When you look at these robots or talk to the students, I'm sure they can tell you about how they were inspired by their mentors and the entire build process. Whether they designed a part of the bot or not. They are, most likely, still inspired by the experience. It may not even br the building that inspires them, to go on into the fields of science and technology, it's really the experience that brings them back

As for students in the pits, we have a pit crew of around 5 people. Two college students and three high schoolers, I also jump in if there is work that needs to be done. whenever there is a job that needs to be done, there is a high schooler on it. the college students are there to make sure it gets done correctly. And if we don't know how to fix something, they are there to teach us how.

The end point is that a lot of inspiration can be had on both ends of the spectrum. I don't ever want to see the highly engineered robots go away; after all, that's what makes all of the people in the stands say "WOW - I wish I could've done THAT!" To me, there's a lot of inspiration in that.

I agree. These highly engineered robots are one of the big reasons i come back every year. I am always saying, "John, can you tell me how that works?" or "Carne, can we build one of those for the robot?" Last year at Nats i took a walk down murders row and stood staring at Wildstangs bot with all the sheet metal fabrication and asked John, "We really need to do that next year, can we?" These amazing robots may be designed largely by engineers, but they always inspire me.

Sorry for my long post and incessant ranting. I am also sorry if I got a little off topic. And if it may not all make sense , these are my feelings and may not reflect those of my fellow team mates.

I don't have anything against/see anything wrong with having professional engineers and machinists as team mentors, this is just the setup i am used to and like.

[Derek Bessette]

Originally Posted by plutonium83

I saw three collaborators that where all designed by a GM engineer. To my knowledge the students had no involvement with the development process.

This level of adult involvement takes away from what FIRST is all about, the inspiration of students.

As the head design mentor for NiagaraFIRST.org I figure I shouldn't let this type of whimsical comment pass without a reply.

Karthik, Tristan and Steve have all told stories of how we do things to back up what we have done so I am going to try and stay away from defending the way we do things. I think the results speak for themselves. I know we have a lot of room for improvement but in no way do I think we are doing something wrong. What I am going to do is tell you why I participate in FIRST and what my experiences have been so far.

FIRST for me is a hobby. I enjoy it and I don't get paid, that to me is a hobby. When I was attending Queen's University I was a part of the Mini Baja team. This team was a group of engineering students that built an off-road vehicle that we raced against other schools. There were about 12 students on the team and we had no engineering help. We did have the shop workers who helped us when they could. We built all of the vehicle ourselves and did pretty well after a few years of learning lessons the hard way. I loved every moment I spent on that team. I loved the feeling of building and designing something. That experience is the only reason I have a job at GM today.

After a year of working here the Engineering Manager asked me if I would like to help out with the FIRST robotics team we were starting (team 1114). I agreed to give it a try and immediately fell in love with it.

With FIRST I am able to combine my loves of designing, fabrication, teamwork, competition and teaching all into one "hobby". Right from the beginning I was involved a lot in the design and build process. We had a few key students with the interest in working in these areas who I worked with along with a few other mentors. We did everything as a team. We all had our roles and we worked together to complete a common task. When the first season was over I was proud of the robot and the students.

Our second season was much of the same. Great kids, great mentors, and a great robot. After that second season I decided I wanted to take more of a leadership role on the team. That is when I became the lead mentor for team 1114. We recruited more mentors in the off-season and recruited two more schools to join our group (now called NiagarFIRST.org). By doing this we were able to get more kids involved in FIRST. It was tough this year with three teams to keep them involved in the design. The brainstorming session at GM really got the kids excited and involved. After that day we knew what the robot would do. The rest of the season is a blur. I couldn't tell you which kids or which mentors did what because it was all a team effort. The only thing I do know is that we inspired kids. I know that for sure. I see them every day. They love it!

I've been on a team with no mentors and I have been on a team with lots of mentors. I know both sides. Both sides are great! There is no need to make any drastic changes. Just keep in mind the goal of inspiring students and thrive to do it better.

To make a long story short. I love designing robots and I love working with the students. Does my excitement get in the way of mentoring sometimes...I'm sure it does. But my excitement for engineering is what inspires the students, so I won't feel bad for loving FIRST so much.

I hope this helps.

[MikeDubreuil]

The excitement of being an engineer is being able to take a problem and create a solution. FIRST provides this opportunity by creating the problem, the game, and leaving the solution, the robot, up to the team.

What’s important to remember is that inspiration is the objective of the FIRST program. FIRST’s goal is to motivate high school students into technology related programs in college. Upon graduation they will enter the workforce as an engineer or scientist.

FIRST’s goal is not education; it is not an advanced shop class. If your school embraces the education part, more power to you, but it’s not FIRST’s focus. Building a robot is an assembly line manufacturing job.

This misconception happens a lot in my major computer engineering technology at my school. Students come and say they want to learn how to build personal computers. What they don’t realize is that that job isn’t very glamorous and is a manufacturing job on an assembly line.

Everyone please don’t take offense, I certainly don’t want to disparage manufacturing jobs. After all, just like the garbage man, someone needs to do it. It is however prudent to understand that FIRST was not started by Dean Kamen to create factory workers.

[newton418]

The team I am on (418, Purple Haze, LASA Robotics) is a team made up of students, one teacher (who is our coach), one mentor, one welder and a parents association. The parents association handles the money, provides transportation and leads the “frou crew,” which puts up flags and shiny things in the stands. Our teacher occupies himself with the paper work, making sure we have materials, dealing with the school and of course teaching his classes. Our mentor focuses on another, smaller, competition we compete in which overlaps with the FIRST build season. He also attends competitions because he enjoys the FIRST organization. Our welder does exactly that, welds aluminum pieces for our team because we don't have the facilities for aluminum welding. Besides this the kids do everything. We design the robot, we build the robot, we modify the robot, we test the robot, we model the robot and we’ve even been known to sleep with the robot.

Personally, I love this approach. Being a small team (we had 19 members go to competition) we rely on each and every student to work on the robot. As a result, when I was a freshman I was expected to design and machine parts which would go on the robot. In doing so I have learned much more than in any class I’ve taken. Additionally, I think the single biggest compliment I’ve ever received is the look on the Cheesy Poofs’ coach last year at nationals after our coach informed him we had no professional help.

I don’t mean to preach that having adult help is bad, nor do I mean to suggest that one way is better than the other but I do have to say, winning a round against a robot built with the help of professional engineers feels great.

[mathking]

FIRST’s goal is not education; it is not an advanced shop class. If your school embraces the education part, more power to you, but it’s not FIRST’s focus. Building a robot is an assembly line manufacturing job.

This is the one concept in all of the threads on this topic that really bothers me. And I know it is something Dean Kamen has said.

I don't care if some teams have all engineer built robots. Or if teams have all student designed robots. But for all the teams which are from a high school or schools, it is imperative that this be an educational experience. It may not be FIRST's focus but is the mission of schools. And in my view it is almost criminally wasteful to miss the opportunities for learning that present themselves when students get to work with professionals.

Furthermore, without "the education part" you are not going to do a good job inspiring. It just won't happen. Students need to be participants and not spectators if you really want to inspire them. This is not just opinion, it is well established and well tested theory in education and psychology. Participation does not have to mean students do all or even most of the work. It means that students are involved in the process and that they feel involved in the process. Building a second robot exactly like the first one may be an assembly line manufacturing job, but designing and building the first robot is not.

OK, I am editing this because the post came out a bit (WAY) stronger than I wanted to. I really am trying to convince people not to waste the chance to educate and not chastise. And I certainly am not casting aspersions on how teams involve students as participants. As I said in my first post in this thread, there are many ways to get students involved and thankfully many of these get demonstrated by FIRST teams every year.

[Chris V 1503]

Hey all,

I'm from team 1503 and what Karthik, Tristan, and Dereck said is 100% true. The mentors only helped us with the designing process. I would know it, I'm the leader of the Design & Build team for team 1503 and I basically along with a few others built the entire robot. Tell me how it feels after spending 3 hours designing a wheel, then spend 4 hours infront of a CNC machine making the wheel???? I had to do this for 28 wheels I spent almost half of the three weeks cutting wheels and various small parts that was designed between the three schools. Our mentors from 1114, 1503 and 1680 was basically there to help us along the way. Advice on how to make these parts, thats all. When we packed the robot into the crate on ship day. I had about 4 tears in each eye just watching all the blood, sweat, long nights, and hours I put into the robots. I had only missed 1 day out of the entire build season. It was our idea to build three identical robots.

[Argoth]

In all truth, I feel that my team has more of an edge on teams that have an engineer to completly build their robot because we don't think inside the box. You cannot be limited if you don't know what they are. This year the only things the students didn't do was weld the chassis and a base plate. We still managed to make it to the semi's. My team has absolutly zero engineers. The students are the engineers, the builders, and the soul of the team. At the Lone Star Regional I talked with a judge who had been with FIRST since the beginning and she said that the first year one team had a robot completly done by engineers. All it could do on the field was break-down the entire competition. I personally think that FIRST designs it's competitions to put everyone on as equal a footing as possible. So, to all the teams who have loads of engineers and picture perfect robots.... I say bring'em on. Victory comes to those who deserve it.

[GB330033]

He's right, we've got 0 engineers. We have one man, his father, that helped us all season. He's not an engineer, he's just trying to help us out. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't trade him for an engineer any day, I'd much rather have Papa Page.

There were so many teams at the LSR that looked like their engineers/mentors did everything for them. Half of them couldn't explain their own robot, and that's sad. A mentor's role is to do that, to mentor, to help out the students, not to do the work for them. If you have the resources to get engineers and mentors, then you should also have the resources to build the robot yourself, not let your mentors do it all.

No matter what rank they finish at, I'll always have more respect for the teams who work hard on their own. Those who can be seen in the pits struggling to make repairs, those who look hurt when their robot loses, and those who are elated when their robot wins. It's those students, the ones without an engineer-built robot, that define FIRST, and what FIRST is all about.