When do mentors go too far?

[KathieK]

Originally Posted by newton418

The team I am on (418, Purple Haze, LASA Robotics) is a team made up of students, one teacher (who is our coach), one mentor, one welder and a parents association. The parents association handles the money, provides transportation and leads the “frou crew,” which puts up flags and shiny things in the stands. Our teacher occupies himself with the paper work, making sure we have materials, dealing with the school and of course teaching his classes... Besides this the kids do everything.

Thank you for responding to my question. As you've stated, the students on your team do everything... related to the robot. So you have a very vested interest in that part of the team. I encourage your team to branch out next year and recruit students to get involved in the other aspects of the team. Get the student who excels in Math to help set up the budget; ask the school newspaper to recommend a student who can write well to help you with Public Relations; find someone who is interested in art to design your t-shirts and buttons and make your flags and shiny things... Encourage all team members to learn about the flip side to your organization. The goal of FIRST is to inspire students about science and technology but it doesn't say anything about limiting the inspiration to those students who naturally gravitate towards those subjects! Get the humanities students interested in science and technology and THEN we're accomplishing the goals of FIRST!

[Steve W]

Please do not assume that what I am about to say shows anything against student built robots. I will be talking generally not specifically.

Engineers have years of experience and training. They have developed a knowledge base on which to work. There are some things that they don't even try because they know it won't work. This saves time and frustration when you only have 6 weeks to build. Students have enthusiasm, desire, energy and no preconceived ideas. They don't know what will or won't work or maybe a better way to do the same thing. They work on a trial and error system (I do too, I'm not an engineer) which takes a lot of time and effort to sometimes produce nothing. This is why we need engineers. Their abilities and insight actually let us accomplish more than the sum of our parts. Can student run teams work? Yes. Can Mentor/Engineer run teams work? Yes. Can the two work together? Yes.

We should not be debating "When do mentors go too far?" but how do they feel that their team works and inspires with mentor/ engineers doing what they do. This would be only seen and recognized by the members of that team as they are the ones spending the time and seeing what is being done.

I know personally that our team is becoming more student run than the first year i was there. This is great and it inspires me as a mentor. Teams will go through different cycles in their growth. Every 4 years a team has been changed over with all new personalities and abilities. This is what challenges the mentors. We don't just have to inspire you but also everyone that comes after you. FIRST is a great program! Let's not tear other teams down when you are looking on from the outside. As a famous saying goes, don't criticize someone till you have walked a mile in their shoes.

[cbolin]

Hi,
Here is what I have like seeing at the two regionals thus far...

*Robots break down during a match...students hustle and team up to correct the problem. A mentor may get his hands on the problem or looks on. The robot is repaired.

*Drive team needs a specific autonomous mode. They go to the 17-year old who listens, clarifies and then writes the code to make it happen. The autonomous mode works well. A real crowd pleaser.

*We do poorly at one regional. Students get together with mentors to discuss robot problems. Mentors organize a major overhaul to be conducted on the first Thursday at the next regional. At the next regional, the students spend 8 hours implementing major changes. The robot is twice as fast and the arm elevates more quickly and smoke doesn't come out of the motor any more.:-)

*Students' determination to improve the robot after a dismal performance motivates a mentor come in on the following Saturday (his own time) to machine parts needed for a modification at the next regional. The parts work perfectly. Robot is much better.

*With a great robot, team is still doing poorly in the rankings. Students get together with a mentor facilitating the discussion. They figure out on their own how to improve scouting, why the top teams are ranked high when our bot is just as good, etc. The next day, they look like a different team and make it to the semifinals.

*Drive team takes video of the matches back to their room to analyze the top teams. Develop an improved strategy. It works.

*Students and their parents who can't stay in a hotel near the competition drive 100 miles one way each morning and evening just to be at the competition. They are dedicated. Thanks parents.

*A mom prepares a delicious meal and delivers it 100 miles away to the competition. It is still hot. I eat too much. Yum!

*Student has a behavioral issue. I pull him or her aside, remind them they are doing a good job and ask them to focus on correcting a certain behavior. They do. Others note the change.

Regards,
ChuckB, Team 342

[Spikey]

Originally Posted by Andy A.

Dean Kamen, among others have wieghed in on this before. I can't think of a better way to put it. So I'll let that speak for me.

Portion of a Speech by Dean Kamen
1998 FIRST Competition Kickoff Workshop, January 10, 1998
The Center for New Hampshire, Manchester, NH
[imperfectly transcribed from a videotape]
copyright 1998 PNHS and GMPT

"I don’t know how many ways to try and continue to say it. . . What this organization is about is not education per se. I heard a lot of people, even last night, and I think they mean well, and I understand what you’re saying, there needs to be a balance, but I heard people saying "well sure that other team did great, but thats because the engineers did all the work. The kids didn’t build the robot." I have to tell you, FIRST is not an educational institution. Its okay if the kids build the whole robot, its okay if they don’t touch it. FIRST ought to be to education what the NFL or the World Series is to little league."


-Andy A.

I respect Dean a lot but I have to disagree with him on his point of education. FIRST robotics has become an educational institution and has been for a long time an educational experience. Anything that teaches students about organization, leadership, engineering, and design is inherently educational. I must say learning how to wire and and build a robot has been very educational, I have learned skills that I would not have learned anywhere else. Perhaps Dean has changed his mind today, but no matter what FIRST is inherently about education as much as it is about Inspiration.

[Steve W]

Let me try and put Deans words another way. It may be wrong but this is what I believe he is saying:

FIRST is about inspiration not education. This does not mean that education does not happen with FIRST. As you become inspired you try harder, work harder and learn more. This is education. To see touch and get excited about robots, web sites, CAD drawings, animation or book keeping through FIRST is inspiration. Without the inspiration none of the other stuff would happen or it would be at a slower growth rate.

I can't tell you how many times I have heard students say, so that's what I am taught that for. Seeing a reason for education is inspirational. Students that see why they are learning or a reason for learning, apply themselves more to the learning. Again that is inspiration. FIRST is definitely about inspiration and education is the largest beneficiary of it.

I hope that I make sense as I babbled on.

[Andrew Blair]

Originally Posted by KathieK

Wow, didn't see a single post in this thread about mentors and the non-engineering aspect of a team... just a question, not meant to insult or inflame, just curious, on the student-led teams, how did you eat during your Regionals? Was one of your students in charge of figuring out where the team would get breakfast, make the bagged lunches, figure out what restaurant could seat you all for dinner? And did you put your hotel reservations on your credit card (to be reimbursed later)? Our team has a large mentor base. I'd love to talk to a team which is more student-based to see how you do it all.

Also, not to inflame or sound cocky, but quite a bit yes. Our team has an extremely small mentor base, only three of them, and, though we obviously do not charge a several thousand dollar amount onto our own personal credit card, we do take care of the hotel arrangements on our own (using a very trusting mentor's credit card), as well as some food. However, we do not make seating reservations at large resturants, nor drive ourselves to the competitions. Our mentors are wonderful to us, and our team is very grateful for their support, but our team, and I'm sure many others, get along fine with more responsibilties placed upon them.

[Argoth]

I believe what Dean may have been saying is that education in and of itself is worthless. There must be some driving force that causes you to DO something with what you have learned, and I think that was what Dean was getting at. As my father always says... "you can have a PhD., but if you don't get your head in the game you'll be digging a ditch with a pretty certificate. " I don't think Dean was knocking the educational experience of FIRST at all, just taking another view of it. But, I guess the only way to truly know the answer to that is to ask the man himself.

[David Guzman]

In my opinion FIRST is about creating relations between students with adults and the only way this can happen is if they work together and learn from each other. Now if only the mentors work on the bot and there is no comunication with the students then that relation is being lost.

I am very proud to say that in my team, we students do all the work and our mentors just sit back and relax. During the building season they give us their thoughts and they help us develope ours, but we design and we built. At the competition mentors are the ones who actually don't touch the bot, once in a while they'll give us an advise or correct us but always letting us fix it or improve it.

[cbolin]

Being a geek of 40+ years, I have always had difficulting respecting and enjoying the company of 'teens' and seeing them as important individuals. I allowed differences in taste such as music, hairstyles, clothing, language, etc. to create this really big generation gap between myself and teens.

However, a few years ago I began teaching a group of junior/high school students how to program computer games. Additionally, during the past two years I have learned to work with teens in robotics.

Consequently, in my personal life, FIRST and common technology interests have served as bridge between myself and teens. Now I enjoy their company and look forward to working with them. FIRST has provided me with a 'new language' to communicate with high school students.

Because of this common language and regained confidence in young people, I can trust them to take on significant robotic tasks (electrical and mechanical design and wiring, programming, strategy) successfully so I can sit back and be as passive as possible during the robotic six-week build phase and competitions. I am available when they have questions and I interject when necessary to keep things moving along safely and smoothly.

Its neatto see all the inspiration and education that results from FIRST robotics...benefiting students and mentors.

High school students today really rock! I am proud to work with such wonderful people.

Regards,
Chuck

[White_Orpheus]

I think all too often a team is heavily mentor run for the wrong reasons. Are you taking too much initiative because you want to see your team perform well at competition, or because you honestly believe it is more beneficial to your students to watch you work on the bot?

As everyone is so quick to point out, FIRST is about inspiration and learning, not winning. Our robot was absolutely terrible last year. Far more than half of our matches were spent helplessly watching the bot sit in the starting position. Did I still learn a lot? Yes. If anything I was more inspired to learn more about engineering by watching a terrible bot than I would be watching one do well. In my opinion, it is far more beneficial to the students to be 100% responsible for every aspect of the team, with adults merely present to make sure discipline is enforced, and offer advice when asked.

My sincere apologies to 1114, 1503, 1680 for my judgments of your collaboration and the teams at FLR. It was unfair for me to accuse your team of being inspirational or judge the quality of your 6 week build based on based on conjecture and rumor.

I learned a lot from this thread. Such as the difference between being educational and inspirational and the balance between mentor and student involvement. I didn't know such issues have been debated again and again at cd. However, I learned the most important lesson of all, I learned that I should think before I post anything potentially offensive toward another person.

Again, my sincere apologies.

Kevin Cheng
Team 639

[MattB703]

Originally Posted by White_Orpheus

I think all too often a team is heavily mentor run for the wrong reasons. Are you taking too much initiative because you want to see your team perform well at competition, or because you honestly believe it is more beneficial to your students to watch you work on the bot?

Well, I've been mentoring FIRST teams for 7 years now. I cannot begin to list the things I've given up in other parts of my life to be a part of this grand experiment.

As others have pointed out, part of the reason I do this is because it IS fun. I enjoy it. I also enjoy Autocross racing. I could be spending this time making my car faster. SO why do I throw myself so heavily into FIRST? Because I truly believe this is our best chance to change our society.

To directly address what White_Orpheus said above;

I am not in this to inspire the students on my team.

There are 10s of thousands of students who are exposed to FIRST each year. We can best inspire all of them by each of us doing the very best we can to increase the excellence of each FIRST event. Our best chance at influencing 100s of thousands is to get a mass audience. To do that we need the competition to be so awe inspiring that even people who are not involved will want to watch.

My personal goal will always be to contribute to the excellence of each event. I think that is the best shot at inspiring the most people.

Matt B.

[Sean Schuff]

Wow! This discussion has evolved quickly! Just like every other one on this topic.

I'm a big picture kind of guy and I don't like to see people ruin a good thing because they don't like a small part of what they see. Don't trade in the Cadillac just because there is a scratch in the bumper. FIRST is bigger than a handful of teams that some perceive to be in violation of some rule that doesn't exist.

I've said this before in an unrelated post and figured it fit in just as well here. Relating to why students (and mentors for that matter) get involved in FIRST...

Whatever the "reason" for their wanting to be a part of something really cool, it's their reason and just as valid as anyone elses.

Who are we (any of us involved in FIRST) to judge another team/robot/approach to FIRST? I take pride in the way our team operates and I fully understand the philosophy behind FIRST. And I certainly don't belittle other teams because they don't share the same operational philosophy that I do. I will admit that when I was new to the world of FIRST I had some skepticism toward teams that are driven more by mentors than by students but I've changed over the years. I get it now. I understand what FIRST is all about. Big picture - kids think engineering and science and math and technology and being an ubergeek is cool! We are succeeding!

My thoughts on the notion of FIRST not being an educational enterprise... Being an educator I find it very difficult to not view FIRST as an educational endeavor but that's simply becuase I look at most things in life as educational in some respect. That's my perspective and that's how I operate. You can take the teacher out of the classroom but you can't take the classroom out of the teacher. My life revolves around teaching, sharing experiences and getting kids excited about learning. It's a lifelong process that they need to be prepared for.

Different teams. Different philosophies. Different approaches to the anamoly that is FIRST Robotics. If you have a hard time reconciling this simple truth you may want to find something different to do with your time.

Bottom line for me - I do this FIRST thing because it's fun. When I'm no longer having fun doing it (can't imagine that!) I'll find something else fun to do.

Best of luck to ALL teams no matter how you operate. You all deserve it!

My one cent (the other is paying for expensive gas!)

Sean

[nicholaswheaton]

the way that it seems to be is that adult built robots are just stealing awards from the other teams.

[naskie18]

Originally Posted by MattB703

As others have pointed out, part of the reason I do this is because it IS fun. I enjoy it. I also enjoy Autocross racing. I could be spending this time making my car faster.

Nice Formula, btw Still running the 2.8L?


It has been my experience, in being on a FIRST team and in mentoring a FIRST team, that the kids on the team seem to get more out of it when they get to build and design the robot. Maybe that was just the group of kids we had this year, though, this being the rookie year of the team I helped to found and mentor. While we mentors took care of most of the planning of the meetings and getting registration done and organized and planning many of the fundraisers and such, the students got to design and build the robot how they wanted, and it was really cool to not only see them do that, but to see them when we were in our first match at our regional and it all worked. That was really cool. It has also been very cool for us seeing the students get more involved in running the team, when they won the Rookie All Star award and qualified for Nationals, they did some serious brainstorming to try and come up with ways to raise the money so that they could go.

Originally I was sure that the best FIRST team was one that the students got to design and build the robot. Now, I'm not so sure that there is a best format for a FIRST team. Students designing and building it seems to work well for some teams, and engineers desiging and building it seems to work well for others.

In high school, I was on a team where the robot was, for the most part, designed and built for us. And while I would've liked to have had a more active role in it, I had a lot of fun and it pbviously impacted me a great deal, as I decided to help to start and mentor a FIRST team. Yes, this team is being run differently than the one I was on in high school. But it seems we're having the same effect on the students, inspiring them to learn and to have fun while doing it. As long as that continues, I see no reason to complain about doing it either way. As Sean said, when it stops being fun, then there's a real problem to address. But until then, I'll be right here continuing to mentor and participate in FIRST.