Should teams be allowed to attend multiple regionals?

[AJunx]

Ms. K, and Mr. Lavery have both brought up a great point which I failed to think about while I was writing my last post. That is,

Originally Posted by dlavery

Installing a price cap mimicks real life (virtually every engineering project has a budget cap and spending limitations) and encourages innovation (if you can't just buy a solution to a certain problem, then you have to find a way to create it).

&

Originally Posted by Allison K

I would say that the $3,500 limit was put in place not to control the use of a team's funds, but to enhance the engineering experience.

At the time of my post, I certainly had not considered this aspect of the rules restricting how teams may spend their time and resources. It seemed quite reasonable to me that FIRST would make those limits both in an attempt to prevent overworking students/mentors (which I think Mr. Lavery referred to) and to prevent teams from focusing solely on the competition aspect of FIRST all year-round (which, Mr. Lavery has clearly pointed out, was simply my misconception).

Originally Posted by dlavery

FIRST recognizes that a very high percentage of the teams in the program spend their entire budget just paying for the registration fees, travel costs to attend the events, and purchasing supplies to construct the robot. For most teams, there is NO money left over to fund elaborate outreach activities…
And contrary to the previous statements, FIRST is just fine with that.

I shall happily agree that “a very high percentage of teams in the program spend their entire budget just paying for the registration fees, travel costs, etc.” But based on that statement alone, we know that some teams (a “very low percentage”, perhaps) have the budget capacity to do more than just attend a regional (and in some cases, nationals). The question then, is NOT:
--Should teams that can afford to attend only one or two regional events not attend those regionals?
But rather:
--Should teams that can afford to go to 3-4 regionals not attend those additional (third and fourth) regionals?

Actually, no, that is not the question at all. Nevermind, don’t answer that one.

Originally Posted by dlavery

And contrary to the previous statements, FIRST is just fine with that. They have not made any attempt to tel lthe teams, explicitly or implictly, how to spend any excess funds they may have (and I would not want them to).

Perhaps what I have been getting at this whole time is what Mr. Lavery is referring to here (although my opinion would appear to be quite different from Mr. Lavery's):

Although it has been a fairly long while since I last heard the legendary Mr. Dean Kamen speak about robotics, FIRST, engineering, and life (in fact, it was about one year ago); I thought I remembered him talking about “homework.” I could have sworn that in each of the past 4 years that I have attended the championship event, Mr. Kamen has given every team (and person) an assignment:

Spread the word. Help FIRST grow in any and every way you can.

Again, my memory of his exact message is suspect at best, but I do believe that Mr. Kamen has explicitly told us to do everything in our power (whether that includes funds or not) to inspire those who have not yet been inspired.

Here is an excerpt from an interview with Mr. Kamen that was conducted by Kathy Kowalenko, posted in this thread:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...t=Kamen+speech

This year, 23,000 high school students participated in the FIRST competition. Is FIRST meeting your expectations?

The event always exceeds my expectations, but I am saddened by the relatively low number of students participating. While everyone is astounded by our growth—we’re finally in a major national sports arena—I assumed that we would have gotten here in the first or second year. Our growth may be envied but it’s never fast enough for me.

When will you consider FIRST to be really successful?

Five years from today, I want every kid in every high school in the United States to know that their high school has a football team, a marching band, and a FIRST team—it’s a given, its part of the school’s culture.

I take from Mr. Kamen's statements that he explicitly, or implicitly, wants teams to do everything they can to help FIRST grow. I do realize that there are plenty of ways to help FIRST grow, including, of course, attending regional and championship events.

[slight change of topic] One thing that I just thought about is that everyone who spends their time thinking about FIRST in the middle of the night , posting on Chief Delphi, wearing neon pink or tie-dyed shirts, designing transmissions for the kit-robot, and/or coming up with thought-provoking YMTCs… we are all inspired. There is no question about that. I am inspired and it feels good.

That being said, there are plenty out there who have not seen the light of inspiration, with regard to science and engineering. It seems as if FIRST is entirely about using every means at your disposal to bring that light of inspiration to the uninspired.

The fact that FIRST has been able to inspire so many people and continue to do so, is, I believe, a testament to the dedication of those who are constantly using their resources to further increase the reach of FIRST. Thanks to every person who has dedicated themselves to promoting FIRST and science/engineering, and inspiring others to get involved (I'm one of those inspired others). Without you, there’d be no discussion about how best to inspire; indeed, there would be no torch of inspiration to pass on to the next generation of FIRST participants.

All of this aside, thanks to everyone for the thoughtful discussion.

-Andrew

P.S. Feel free to tell me if I am way off base about anything I mentioned in this post .

P.P.S. In the first post of this thread, I was referring to Team 384 (Sparky). I mistakenly typed in Team 364 (not that they aren't great too!).

[Shu Song]

Agreed. Our team would love to help start new teams in our area, but we just don't have the funds. Every year before kick off, we struggle to get secure funds to register for the first regional. At that time, no one is even thinking about a 2nd or 3rd regional, or even championships. This gives us no possible way to spend our funds on anything other than for our own team.

I realize that the real world operates like this, that every project hinges on amount of money involved. But if the true mission of FIRST is to get kids invovled in science and technology through the really fun competition, then shouldn't every team get the means to be able to spread the word of FIRST.

Every year I hear the homework assignment from Dean, and every year I wanted my team to try and start up a new team in a nearby high school, but year after year, we fall short on money and there is simply no time or money to to do anything.

That's my spiel.

[Sakura141]

My team attends 3 or 4 regionals every year, and each year we make attempts to get another team started at that highschool, they refuse to accept us though, they don't have any interest... and that saddens me that they don't

[dlavery]

Q:This year, 23,000 high school students participated in the FIRST competition. Is FIRST meeting your expectations?

The event always exceeds my expectations, but I am saddened by the relatively low number of students participating. While everyone is astounded by our growth—we’re finally in a major national sports arena—I assumed that we would have gotten here in the first or second year. Our growth may be envied but it’s never fast enough for me.

Q: When will you consider FIRST to be really successful?

Five years from today, I want every kid in every high school in the United States to know that their high school has a football team, a marching band, and a FIRST team—it’s a given, its part of the school’s culture.

As we start to dissect Dean's quote, there is one important factor that I want to make sure is remembered. On a regular basis, FIRST and Dean are quick to point out that FIRST is not just the FIRST Robotics Competition (FRC). FIRST is about inspiration, cultural transformation, mentorship, celebration of creativity, and recognition of innovation. Those goals are not limited to just one part of their program, or just the FRC. When Dean speaks of having a FIRST team in every high school in the country, he is not necessarily saying that every high school will have a FRC team - he is saying that every high school will make some element of the FIRST experience available to their students. He is saying that he wants every student exposed to that message of inspiration, cultural transformation, mentorship, celebration of creativity, and recognition of innovation. It may be done through a FRC team. But it may also be a FLL Mentoring program, or perhaps a FIRST VEX team (let's see where that one goes), or an implmentation of other parts of the FIRST program that are currently in the development pipeline from Manchester.

In other words, there is not a complete one-to-one relationship between FIRST and FRC. Helping FIRST grow does not necessarily have to mean helping FRC grow. It could mean helping FLL, VEX, or a future to-be-announced part of FIRST. And if that is the case, then is it necessary - or is it even appropriate - to ask FRC teams to foot the bill for that growth?

-dave

[AJunx]

Originally Posted by dlavery

FIRST is not just the FIRST Robotics Competition (FRC). FIRST is about inspiration, cultural transformation, mentorship, celebration of creativity, and recognition of innovation. Those goals are not limited to just one part of their program, or just the FRC. When Dean speaks of having a FIRST team in every high school in the country, he is not necessarily saying that every high school will have a FRC team - he is saying that every high school will make some element of the FIRST experience available to their students. He is saying that he wants every student exposed to that message of inspiration, cultural transformation, mentorship, celebration of creativity, and recognition of innovation. It may be done through a FRC team. But it may also be a FLL Mentoring program, or perhaps a FIRST VEX team (let's see where that one goes), or an implmentation of other parts of the FIRST program that are currently in the development pipeline from Manchester.

I could not have said it better myself. I agree 100%.

Originally Posted by dlavery

In other words, there is not a complete one-to-one relationship between FIRST and FRC. Helping FIRST grow does not necessarily have to mean helping FRC grow. It could mean helping FLL, VEX, or a future to-be-announced part of FIRST.

Again, I agree wholeheartedly. This is precisely why I began this thread: to point out that FIRST is not just the FIRST Robotics Competition.

Originally Posted by dlavery

And if that is the case, then is it necessary - or is it even appropriate - to ask FRC teams to foot the bill for that growth?

Absolutely. In fact, I could not imagine a more appropriate or capable group of people to whom this task could be appointed. Who better to spread the word of FIRST than teams of dedicated engineers, enthusiastic teachers and college students, and inspired high school students?

-Andrew

[dlavery]

Originally Posted by AJunx

Absolutely. In fact, I could not imagine a more appropriate or capable group of people to whom this task could be appointed. Who better to spread the word of FIRST than teams of dedicated engineers, enthusiastic teachers and college students, and inspired high school students?

But Andrew, I see an enormous difference between asking a group such as the FRC teams to help grow the FIRST program, and asking them to PAY for growing the FIRST program.

In the interests of playing the devil's advocate, I would pose the question at the opposite extreme: the FRC teams are helping FIRST grow their program. FIRST is the most direct beneficiary of those efforts, not the FRC teams. If that is the case, is it really appropriate for FIRST to ask the FRC teams to pay for the privilege of growing FIRST? Shouldn't it really be the other way around - for every new FRC (or VEX or FLL) team that a FRC team creates, should they be paid a reward by FIRST?

-dave

[dubious elise]

Originally Posted by dlavery

Shouldn't it really be the other way around - for every new FRC (or VEX or FLL) team that a FRC team creates, should they be paid a reward by FIRST?
-dave

Well, I for one wouldn't complain!
I'll admit that paying to attend multiple regionals is a stretch for any team, but money-management is just another facet of the yearly challenge. Developing new fundraisers, finding new sponsors, and eventually, finding the time to create a new team are all integral parts of FIRST that are oftentimes harder than creating the robot itself.

[Keith Chester]

Should teams be allowed more than one regional?

Of course!

FIRST is about inspiration, and some of the most inspiring moments comes from seeing people from other regions, sometimes even other COUNTRIES, compete with the same ideals as you. Looking across the pits and seeing a crew of high schoolers from South Carolina that you would have never met in your life otherwise and seeing them studying their machine the same way you were seconds before. Being able to go up to them, completely comfortable in doing so, and ask them for aide, knowing that I'd recieve an affirmative. Asking them questions about their robot, knowing that a friendly conversation would ensue. Forgetting all about the warnings our parents gave about not trusting strangers at all. Or looking at the eyes of a fellow drive coach after a vicious match, where an opponent lay on the field damaged, and without words traded between either of you, knowing that you are both going to rush over to the aid of that wounded bot. Seeing more refreshing and widespread signs of good in this world.

Being able to travel to more than your home regional allows you to see that FIRST is truly working. It allows you to learn more about how the world works than within your own home state, which some of us won't get to leave until college, if that.

Or I could just be rambling. My apologies. It's late for me.

Also - you work for countless hours on your robot. Of COURSE you want to be able to compete with it multiple times. Unfortunately, yes, there is budget restrictions on some teams that disallow them from traveling to a second regional and even nationals. It is a sad but true part of life in FIRST. But for those that do have the money, why not?

[Kims Robot]

Originally Posted by AJunx

Again, my memory of his exact message is suspect at best, but I do believe that Mr. Kamen has explicitly told us to do everything in our power (whether that includes funds or not) to inspire those who have not yet been inspired.

My only issue with a lot of the comments in this thread, is that it all seems to be based around funding. True inspiration does NOT come from funding. And a lot of the teams with financial resources, may not have an overabundance of engineering resources. Take our team. We have a very stable and very generous sponsor: Harris Corporation. However, when it came down to the six weeks, we really had about 10 engineers (for 30 students). And probably half of those were part time (meaning they could only make it a few times a week). Looking at these numbers, next year, I would not start another team. I would use the engineers I have to give quality time to the kids that we have. I feel its better to give a smaller number of students a truely inspiring experience, than it is to give a large number of students a mediocre experience. Additionally, the logistics that go into starting and running an additional team are HUGE! I spent over 45 hours a week outside my job just to get 1511 up and running, and get everyone organized. There is no way we could have handled doing that for a second team. My hat goes off to teams like the triplets of Toronto who can gather, organize, sustain and put forth multiple teams.

Additionally, further support for my "inspiration does not come from money" pitch, is that we can go to the middle schools with our robot for free, do presentations and mini seminars for them for FREE. We can introduce other schools to FIRST for FREE... at zero cost to us. We even held a large community scrimmage for 10 local teams, and we paid under $500 for EVERYTHING! It was still a very fun, very inspiring event.

So in the end, if teams have the funds to attend multiple regionals, I still say go for it. Give the students as much competition for their hard work that year as you can afford. And especially now that Championships are not "anyone can register" a lot of teams are using multiple regionals to 1. give the same experience, or 2. to have a better shot at getting their kids to championships. Plus think about your seniors... this may be there last shot... shouldnt they get as much out of this year as possible??

[The Lucas]

Here is my theory on the matter:
Teams that attend more than one Regional reduce the cost for all teams to attend Regionals. This promotes the growth of FIRST by increasing the number of teams and Regionals

I’ve never been part of a Regional planning committee so I don’t know the exact costs involved in hosting a Regional. However, I think it is safe to assume that:
1) Fixed costs (site rental, playing field, etc...) are high
2) Marginal costs to add one more team (power, spare parts, etc…) are less than the marginal revenue ($4000 fee) until the venue reaches maximum capacity.
(Sorry bout the economic jargon, but its nice to see my minor in Economics is coming in handy )

The optimal number of teams at a Regional is the maximum capacity, from a profit-maximizing standpoint (loss-minimizing in FIRST’s case). FIRST has 30 Regionals and let’s say about 900 teams because it’s a nice number. If teams were only allowed to attend one Regional, the average Regional would only have 30 teams. This is significantly less than the capacity of the smallest venue (41 at Philly) and less than half the capacity of some of the larger Regional. To make up for this loss in revenue, FIRST would have to raise the cost of the kit and registration for a Regional (currently $6000) and/or reduce the number of Regionals.

Keeping the cost of the kit and entry down is important since it is the minimum annual cost of fielding a FIRST team. If this cost increases, less potential new teams will be able to raise the money for the entry fee. Also, more existing teams would have financial difficulties and possibly go bankrupt (dropout of FIRST).

If teams could only attend one Regional, there would not be enough participants to support 30 Regionals. Some Regionals are more popular than others, so the less popular Regionals would be starved for competitors. This year, the Waterloo Regional had the bare minimum of 24 teams in attendance. I don’t think teams 40 and 68 would have traveled to this regional if it meant they would not be allowed to attend BAE and GLR as well.

Is it fair that some teams attend more Regionals than others? No, but FIRST isn’t fair and never will be. Some teams will always have advantages (money, experience, engineers, etc…) over other teams.

In FIRST, it doesn’t really matter if the competition is totally fair, as long as the competition is fun. The actual competition aspect of FIRST has always been a means to an end. The competitions are fun so teams keep coming back and more teams join. More Regionals are added, increasing FIRST’s exposure in that region. More teams join because they have a local Regional now. FIRST continues to grow. Along the way more and more students every year are learning that engineering is more than just difficult equations for geeks. Engineering can be a fun and rewarding experience that everyone can do if they try. The culture of young people around the world changes for the better simply because robotic competitions are fun.

[Meyerman]

I personally feel the more you attend the better. You spend 6 weeks working on a robot , why wouldnt you want to use it as much as you possibly could this year team 56 went to the Sacramento Regional, New Jersey Regional, and Philadelphia Regional and being we won the Philadelphia Regional we are now also goin to Nationals. This took a lot of work out of all the students on the team not so much to get the money for regionals but we were able to raise $15,000 in 2 weeks to be able to send half of our team to nationals. i think it will definately be worth all the work because we get to use our bot once again! and cant wait to see how we do. ATTEND AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE ITS WORTH IT.