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View Poll Results: What do you think?
Teams should only be allowed to attend 1 regional. 13 6.40%
Teams should be allowed to attend as many regionals as they want. (status quo) 114 56.16%
We should strive to have every team attend at least 2 regionals. 76 37.44%
Voters: 203. You may not vote on this poll

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  #46   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 08-04-2005, 10:33
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Re: Should teams be allowed to attend multiple regionals?

Agreed. Our team would love to help start new teams in our area, but we just don't have the funds. Every year before kick off, we struggle to get secure funds to register for the first regional. At that time, no one is even thinking about a 2nd or 3rd regional, or even championships. This gives us no possible way to spend our funds on anything other than for our own team.

I realize that the real world operates like this, that every project hinges on amount of money involved. But if the true mission of FIRST is to get kids invovled in science and technology through the really fun competition, then shouldn't every team get the means to be able to spread the word of FIRST.

Every year I hear the homework assignment from Dean, and every year I wanted my team to try and start up a new team in a nearby high school, but year after year, we fall short on money and there is simply no time or money to to do anything.

That's my spiel.
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Unread 08-04-2005, 10:45
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Re: Should teams be allowed to attend multiple regionals?

My team attends 3 or 4 regionals every year, and each year we make attempts to get another team started at that highschool, they refuse to accept us though, they don't have any interest... and that saddens me that they don't
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Unread 08-04-2005, 10:53
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Re: Should teams be allowed to attend multiple regionals?

Quote:
Q:This year, 23,000 high school students participated in the FIRST competition. Is FIRST meeting your expectations?

The event always exceeds my expectations, but I am saddened by the relatively low number of students participating. While everyone is astounded by our growth—we’re finally in a major national sports arena—I assumed that we would have gotten here in the first or second year. Our growth may be envied but it’s never fast enough for me.

Q: When will you consider FIRST to be really successful?

Five years from today, I want every kid in every high school in the United States to know that their high school has a football team, a marching band, and a FIRST team—it’s a given, its part of the school’s culture.
As we start to dissect Dean's quote, there is one important factor that I want to make sure is remembered. On a regular basis, FIRST and Dean are quick to point out that FIRST is not just the FIRST Robotics Competition (FRC). FIRST is about inspiration, cultural transformation, mentorship, celebration of creativity, and recognition of innovation. Those goals are not limited to just one part of their program, or just the FRC. When Dean speaks of having a FIRST team in every high school in the country, he is not necessarily saying that every high school will have a FRC team - he is saying that every high school will make some element of the FIRST experience available to their students. He is saying that he wants every student exposed to that message of inspiration, cultural transformation, mentorship, celebration of creativity, and recognition of innovation. It may be done through a FRC team. But it may also be a FLL Mentoring program, or perhaps a FIRST VEX team (let's see where that one goes), or an implmentation of other parts of the FIRST program that are currently in the development pipeline from Manchester.

In other words, there is not a complete one-to-one relationship between FIRST and FRC. Helping FIRST grow does not necessarily have to mean helping FRC grow. It could mean helping FLL, VEX, or a future to-be-announced part of FIRST. And if that is the case, then is it necessary - or is it even appropriate - to ask FRC teams to foot the bill for that growth?

-dave
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Unread 09-04-2005, 17:26
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Re: Should teams be allowed to attend multiple regionals?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dlavery
FIRST is not just the FIRST Robotics Competition (FRC). FIRST is about inspiration, cultural transformation, mentorship, celebration of creativity, and recognition of innovation. Those goals are not limited to just one part of their program, or just the FRC. When Dean speaks of having a FIRST team in every high school in the country, he is not necessarily saying that every high school will have a FRC team - he is saying that every high school will make some element of the FIRST experience available to their students. He is saying that he wants every student exposed to that message of inspiration, cultural transformation, mentorship, celebration of creativity, and recognition of innovation. It may be done through a FRC team. But it may also be a FLL Mentoring program, or perhaps a FIRST VEX team (let's see where that one goes), or an implmentation of other parts of the FIRST program that are currently in the development pipeline from Manchester.
I could not have said it better myself. I agree 100%.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dlavery
In other words, there is not a complete one-to-one relationship between FIRST and FRC. Helping FIRST grow does not necessarily have to mean helping FRC grow. It could mean helping FLL, VEX, or a future to-be-announced part of FIRST.
Again, I agree wholeheartedly. This is precisely why I began this thread: to point out that FIRST is not just the FIRST Robotics Competition.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dlavery
And if that is the case, then is it necessary - or is it even appropriate - to ask FRC teams to foot the bill for that growth?
Absolutely. In fact, I could not imagine a more appropriate or capable group of people to whom this task could be appointed. Who better to spread the word of FIRST than teams of dedicated engineers, enthusiastic teachers and college students, and inspired high school students?

-Andrew
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Unread 09-04-2005, 17:49
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Re: Should teams be allowed to attend multiple regionals?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJunx
Absolutely. In fact, I could not imagine a more appropriate or capable group of people to whom this task could be appointed. Who better to spread the word of FIRST than teams of dedicated engineers, enthusiastic teachers and college students, and inspired high school students?
But Andrew, I see an enormous difference between asking a group such as the FRC teams to help grow the FIRST program, and asking them to PAY for growing the FIRST program.

In the interests of playing the devil's advocate, I would pose the question at the opposite extreme: the FRC teams are helping FIRST grow their program. FIRST is the most direct beneficiary of those efforts, not the FRC teams. If that is the case, is it really appropriate for FIRST to ask the FRC teams to pay for the privilege of growing FIRST? Shouldn't it really be the other way around - for every new FRC (or VEX or FLL) team that a FRC team creates, should they be paid a reward by FIRST?

-dave
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Unread 09-04-2005, 21:23
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Re: Should teams be allowed to attend multiple regionals?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dlavery
Shouldn't it really be the other way around - for every new FRC (or VEX or FLL) team that a FRC team creates, should they be paid a reward by FIRST?
-dave
Well, I for one wouldn't complain!
I'll admit that paying to attend multiple regionals is a stretch for any team, but money-management is just another facet of the yearly challenge. Developing new fundraisers, finding new sponsors, and eventually, finding the time to create a new team are all integral parts of FIRST that are oftentimes harder than creating the robot itself.
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Unread 09-04-2005, 21:41
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Re: Should teams be allowed to attend multiple regionals?

Should teams be allowed more than one regional?

Of course!

FIRST is about inspiration, and some of the most inspiring moments comes from seeing people from other regions, sometimes even other COUNTRIES, compete with the same ideals as you. Looking across the pits and seeing a crew of high schoolers from South Carolina that you would have never met in your life otherwise and seeing them studying their machine the same way you were seconds before. Being able to go up to them, completely comfortable in doing so, and ask them for aide, knowing that I'd recieve an affirmative. Asking them questions about their robot, knowing that a friendly conversation would ensue. Forgetting all about the warnings our parents gave about not trusting strangers at all. Or looking at the eyes of a fellow drive coach after a vicious match, where an opponent lay on the field damaged, and without words traded between either of you, knowing that you are both going to rush over to the aid of that wounded bot. Seeing more refreshing and widespread signs of good in this world.

Being able to travel to more than your home regional allows you to see that FIRST is truly working. It allows you to learn more about how the world works than within your own home state, which some of us won't get to leave until college, if that.

Or I could just be rambling. My apologies. It's late for me.

Also - you work for countless hours on your robot. Of COURSE you want to be able to compete with it multiple times. Unfortunately, yes, there is budget restrictions on some teams that disallow them from traveling to a second regional and even nationals. It is a sad but true part of life in FIRST. But for those that do have the money, why not?
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Unread 10-04-2005, 00:52
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Re: Should teams be allowed to attend multiple regionals?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJunx
Again, my memory of his exact message is suspect at best, but I do believe that Mr. Kamen has explicitly told us to do everything in our power (whether that includes funds or not) to inspire those who have not yet been inspired.
My only issue with a lot of the comments in this thread, is that it all seems to be based around funding. True inspiration does NOT come from funding. And a lot of the teams with financial resources, may not have an overabundance of engineering resources. Take our team. We have a very stable and very generous sponsor: Harris Corporation. However, when it came down to the six weeks, we really had about 10 engineers (for 30 students). And probably half of those were part time (meaning they could only make it a few times a week). Looking at these numbers, next year, I would not start another team. I would use the engineers I have to give quality time to the kids that we have. I feel its better to give a smaller number of students a truely inspiring experience, than it is to give a large number of students a mediocre experience. Additionally, the logistics that go into starting and running an additional team are HUGE! I spent over 45 hours a week outside my job just to get 1511 up and running, and get everyone organized. There is no way we could have handled doing that for a second team. My hat goes off to teams like the triplets of Toronto who can gather, organize, sustain and put forth multiple teams.

Additionally, further support for my "inspiration does not come from money" pitch, is that we can go to the middle schools with our robot for free, do presentations and mini seminars for them for FREE. We can introduce other schools to FIRST for FREE... at zero cost to us. We even held a large community scrimmage for 10 local teams, and we paid under $500 for EVERYTHING! It was still a very fun, very inspiring event.

So in the end, if teams have the funds to attend multiple regionals, I still say go for it. Give the students as much competition for their hard work that year as you can afford. And especially now that Championships are not "anyone can register" a lot of teams are using multiple regionals to 1. give the same experience, or 2. to have a better shot at getting their kids to championships. Plus think about your seniors... this may be there last shot... shouldnt they get as much out of this year as possible??
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Unread 10-04-2005, 12:53
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Re: Should teams be allowed to attend multiple regionals?

Here is my theory on the matter:
Teams that attend more than one Regional reduce the cost for all teams to attend Regionals. This promotes the growth of FIRST by increasing the number of teams and Regionals

I’ve never been part of a Regional planning committee so I don’t know the exact costs involved in hosting a Regional. However, I think it is safe to assume that:
1) Fixed costs (site rental, playing field, etc...) are high
2) Marginal costs to add one more team (power, spare parts, etc…) are less than the marginal revenue ($4000 fee) until the venue reaches maximum capacity.
(Sorry bout the economic jargon, but its nice to see my minor in Economics is coming in handy )

The optimal number of teams at a Regional is the maximum capacity, from a profit-maximizing standpoint (loss-minimizing in FIRST’s case). FIRST has 30 Regionals and let’s say about 900 teams because it’s a nice number. If teams were only allowed to attend one Regional, the average Regional would only have 30 teams. This is significantly less than the capacity of the smallest venue (41 at Philly) and less than half the capacity of some of the larger Regional. To make up for this loss in revenue, FIRST would have to raise the cost of the kit and registration for a Regional (currently $6000) and/or reduce the number of Regionals.

Keeping the cost of the kit and entry down is important since it is the minimum annual cost of fielding a FIRST team. If this cost increases, less potential new teams will be able to raise the money for the entry fee. Also, more existing teams would have financial difficulties and possibly go bankrupt (dropout of FIRST).

If teams could only attend one Regional, there would not be enough participants to support 30 Regionals. Some Regionals are more popular than others, so the less popular Regionals would be starved for competitors. This year, the Waterloo Regional had the bare minimum of 24 teams in attendance. I don’t think teams 40 and 68 would have traveled to this regional if it meant they would not be allowed to attend BAE and GLR as well.

Is it fair that some teams attend more Regionals than others? No, but FIRST isn’t fair and never will be. Some teams will always have advantages (money, experience, engineers, etc…) over other teams.

In FIRST, it doesn’t really matter if the competition is totally fair, as long as the competition is fun. The actual competition aspect of FIRST has always been a means to an end. The competitions are fun so teams keep coming back and more teams join. More Regionals are added, increasing FIRST’s exposure in that region. More teams join because they have a local Regional now. FIRST continues to grow. Along the way more and more students every year are learning that engineering is more than just difficult equations for geeks. Engineering can be a fun and rewarding experience that everyone can do if they try. The culture of young people around the world changes for the better simply because robotic competitions are fun.
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Unread 12-04-2005, 10:10
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Re: Should teams be allowed to attend multiple regionals?

I personally feel the more you attend the better. You spend 6 weeks working on a robot , why wouldnt you want to use it as much as you possibly could this year team 56 went to the Sacramento Regional, New Jersey Regional, and Philadelphia Regional and being we won the Philadelphia Regional we are now also goin to Nationals. This took a lot of work out of all the students on the team not so much to get the money for regionals but we were able to raise $15,000 in 2 weeks to be able to send half of our team to nationals. i think it will definately be worth all the work because we get to use our bot once again! and cant wait to see how we do. ATTEND AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE ITS WORTH IT.
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Unread 12-04-2005, 13:51
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Talking Re: Should teams be allowed to attend multiple regionals?

Teams rely on regionals to qualify for nationals, if they only have one regional and something goes wrong... well they're in trouble.
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Unread 12-04-2005, 14:13
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Re: Should teams be allowed to attend multiple regionals?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dlavery
Uunnnhhh, perhaps there is a different reason. Yes, the $3500 limit was initiated to help level the playing field at a reasonable level (i.e. ensure that well-backed teams could not buy an unlimited amount of machining and out-sourced services while other teams struggled to purchase minimal supplies). -dave
What if FIRST tried to place a cap of, say $5000 of "value added" on INSOURCED machining provided by the teams' sponsoring organization? Boy, would that ever change things!!

More on-topic is this. I feel a team should be allowed to attend as many regionals as they want, but my 10 years in FIRST says that two is the right number. You need more than one to get the driver experience and robot debugging necessary to be competitive at the Championship, but attending three or four regionals takes kids out of too much school and most mentors away from work too much.
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