Student Coaches

[Kims Robot]

Greg kinda already mentioned us... but we have a student & mentor switch off. I remember discussing this in previous threads, and I think this switch makes for an amazing dynamic... they switch off for practice rounds and qualifiers... and then one of them takes the helm for finals... our student was at the helm in FLRC and GTR, while our adult coached the Buckeye Finals. The dynamic is great, they watch from the sidelines and keep eachother in check. It gives our mentor a chance to participate, but keeps our students in control, and mentors the students to become greater coaches in the future. It also helps us with more eyes focused on scouting the field.

I would recommend this dynamic to any team out there.

Go Tommy & Larry! woohoo!

[Shu Song]

I'm the coach for our drive team and I'm a student. I don't think our team would ever let a mentor down there; (with all due respect to our awesome mentors) we think that we can strategize on the fly much more quickly than any of our older mentors can.

[EricH]

We use a mentor who is a good communicator. Mr. Driggs won the Sacramento WFA and knows the robot and drivers very well. If your coach is not a good verbal communicator, get a new one. Or maybe have him take communications classes.

[XtremeEagle04]

Our team uses a mentor coach.

Last year I was a Senior on the team and a driver so I can speak first hand as to the advantages and disadvantages to both. In the plus column: the drivers have a great relationship with the mentor this builds trust, so when the drivers see something that the coach doesn't he doesn't get all worried because he trusts the drivers as well. If ever there were an incident with a rules question or something that happened during the match, it seems that from experience, the ref's tend to take an adult more seriously when they have a problem. When it comes down to it drivers will probably tend to listen to an adult coach more than a student, this can be both good and bad.

By far I think the best coach is somebody who knows the game to the fullest, doesn't crack under pressure, can clearly convey their thoughts to the drivers without yelling, and ultimately the best coaches are people that has driving experience, somebody that knows what its like to be controlling the robot, and know exactly what to tell the drivers when they need to know it.
essentially the coach is playing the game through the drivers, using them to move the robot to where it needs to be and performing the tasks that it needs to.

This being said the drivers on our team still take part in pre-match strategy building sessions with the other drive teams from our alliances.

[Jeff K.]

Team 1138 has a student coach, which is also the President of our Robotics Club. From what I hear, we have always had student coaches from previous years too.

My team (948) had a student coach this year, me. The last three years, our founding advisor was our mentor coach. This year he left, and I since I had been in charge of the team for the past four years, and also the head of robot design and build, I was the captain. As a general rule, leadership or driver positions on our team are decided by meritocracy. If you do more work, dedicate more of yourself to the team, and = you get the desired role.

We did not have a mentor coach this year, because, it was realized that a student could probably interface with the drivers better. Although I am heavily (probably the most) involved in the actual designing and building of the robot, I am very hands off in the driver station. I give over-arching suggestions, but all decisions are of course made by the driver. Since I (purposely) have no driver experience, there is no way I can criticize driver decisions.

[XtremeEagle04]

I give over-arching suggestions, but all decisions are of course made by the driver. Since I (purposely) have no driver experience, there is no way I can criticize driver decisions.

do you think that this makes you a good coach? not to criticize but i am just trying to open myself up to new coaching styles and I was wondering if you feel its better to not criticize driver decisions, seeing as how we all learn from our mistakes and what better way to learn than constructive criticism.

[Kit Gerhart]

Originally Posted by SilverStar

We did not have a mentor coach this year, because, it was realized that a student could probably interface with the drivers better. Although I am heavily (probably the most) involved in the actual designing and building of the robot, I am very hands off in the driver station. I give over-arching suggestions, but all decisions are of course made by the driver. Since I (purposely) have no driver experience, there is no way I can criticize driver decisions.

Interesting concept. I felt that part of what made me valuable as a "second" coach in '98 and '00 was that I had some experience driving the robot and, thus, knew it quirks. I guess if you don't drive the robot at all, you can watch how the match is going without the distraction of thinking about what's involved in making the robot "do its thing."

[DarkJedi613]

Originally Posted by XtremeEagle04

By far I think the best coach is somebody who knows the game to the fullest, doesn't crack under pressure, can clearly convey their thoughts to the drivers without yelling, and ultimately the best coaches are people that has driving experience, somebody that knows what its like to be controlling the robot, and know exactly what to tell the drivers when they need to know it.
essentially the coach is playing the game through the drivers, using them to move the robot to where it needs to be and performing the tasks that it needs to.

I agree, the coach needs to be someone who's calm, knows the rules and the robot and feels comfortable with the drivers. Personally I think its important for them to know the mechanical system also since when theres a problem (like when our arm wouldn't extend at LI) I knew what the problem was and what we were still able to do without that ability.

I disagree with those who say that student coaches are not taken as seriously while talking to the other coaches, most mentors in FIRST respect kids and adults alike. I do agree however that the FIRST Officials/Referees for the most part don't take students as seriously, which is unfortunate since FIRST is for the students.

[1574aviad]

we have a student coach...

[Mark Garver]

Originally Posted by Kit Gerhart

What both Andys, and all good FIRST coaches have in common is good knowledge of the rules, good game strategy skills, and maybe most importantly, good communication and negotiating skills. It shouldn't be that way, but when the teams within an alliance are discussing how to play a match, adult coaches are going to get more respect than student coaches. In the eliminations rounds, the alliance captain team will presumably call the plays, but in the Q matches, a well respected adult coach is going to be more likely to "get his/her way" in calling the plays than a student coach, even a very good one.

I couldn't agree more with the three most important qualifiers for being a coach!

I am a advisor coach (21 y/o, driver for 3 years) who spends little if no time with the students or robot during the build period. I usually spend a weekend of my Spring Break at a regional observing the strategies with other members of our team. During the week of Spring Break I (and my brother 19 y/o, driver for 3 years as well) am in the shop driving the robot and learning the workings of it. The following weekend is almost always our first competition in which I get to know the drivers (I have always known both of them from previous years). For me knowing the game is the most important factor; however you need a strategy that you are able to execute and make changes on the fly if your alliance partners or even yourself have a breakdown. Another important factor for both student and adult coaches, you need to have a strategy based on the other robotics abilities before meeting the other alliance members. This allows you to sell your strategy based on what the other teams are good at and from what you have observed they like to do. If your team comes in to the meeting and is the most organized and planned out it is much easier to sell your idea as opposed to someone that isn't prepared at all. For us we typically wait until we are in the "on deck" area to talk to other teams about the strategy for that match. This is due to a number of reasons primarily both the drivers and I enjoy watching other matches (good strategy). I find that by discussing what my strategy team wants the drive team to accomplish right after the previous match it allows us "down time" to watch these matches and to digest what will be happening during the next round.

[Lil' Lavery]

Our try-outs vary from year to year. This year the judges had made flash cards of field situations and evaluated your response time and what you told them you were going to do next. That was to test both your ability to think quickly and your strategic knowledge.
Each year, the biggest part of the try-outs is the strategic "testing". The try-out has been flash cards, running "mini-games", and sketching out your response to various situations the 3 years I have tried out.
The other major aspect of the try-outs is communication. During the year with the "mini-game", during a few of the rounds they ran they would have the driver controlling the "robot" and the prospective coach tell him what to do. They have also done role-playing of various other team's coaches and scouts for when your debating what strategy you will follow. One of the judges acted as if they were a particularly troublesome to communication with type of personality, and they observed how you reacted.

[Wetzel]

Originally Posted by Kit Gerhart

One thing that is mostly missing from this discussion is that, since mentors are not allowed to be drivers or human players, the only position where adults can be "where the action is," is as a coach. There are mentors who contribute more "blood, sweat, and tears" to their team than most of the students, and who want to be where the action is. In the early part of my FIRST career, I was definitely one of those people. Now that I have had my chance, including being a coach when we won the the championship in 1998, I have less desire to be out on the field. Still, if I had never had that opportunity, I'm not sure I'd still be so active in FIRST. If a team has no mentors who have the desire, and skills to be a good coach, it makes sense in every way to use a student coach. If there are adults who contribute a lot to the team and have the skills to be a good coach, IMHO, they should have that opportunity.

I've never been on the field as a competitor at a FIRST event, and would like to at some point. Having aged out of driving, that leaves coaching.

Until then, I guess I get to volunteer at events, which is still really fun.

Wetzel

[sw293]

Five keys to being a good coach:

1) The confidence of the drivers so that they obey your commands. MUTUAL RESPECT is of the utmost importance.
2) The game-knowlege and intelligence to formulate strategy and handle strategy sessions with other drive teams.
3) A willingness to listen to other coaches/drivers/scouts who may know more than you do in strategy sessions.
4) The ability and self-confidence to make fast, good decisions and stick with them.
5) Good drivers, good scouts, and a good robot.

You will never see a mentor coaching team 293 if I have anything to do with it. I am the coach until finals is over. I got the job last year primarily because the drivers had confidence that I knew what I was doing & talking about. I did a lot of scouting-strategizing last year, and it was a natural step to go from strategist to coach (see #2).

Student coaches versus adult coaches have their strengths and weaknesses. Mentor-coaches almost always fit easily into the leadership role as mentors are already leaders. However, the cohesion that can develop between a student coach and drivers is much greater than that between an adult coach and drivers, because the drivers don't have to listen to a student coach; rather they choose to listen to him because they have confidence in him. Student-coaches on average tend to be a bit sharper than their adult counterparts (however I'm sure there are many many exceptions), because the student coaches are usually selected more for their ability, and mentor-coaches are chosen for their experience.

I'd like to make two points in conclusion. First, the final decision of who coaches should be up to the drivers. Second, a mentor-coach should step aside if it becomes clear that there is a student who can handle the role.

Scott Weingart

[Kit Gerhart]

Has anyone done an analysis of the competition success of teams with student vs. adult coaches? I realize that "winning isn't everything," but it would be interesting to have data on this. Sorry, but I'm too lazy to try to compile it.