Lessons learned 2005: The negative

[dbSparx]

Originally Posted by David Gaylord

As lead queuer on Newton I have no idea what you are talking about (24 minutes x 7 matches = 168 minutes). A few teams on Newton with less than an hour between matches chose to stay in the dome but you are talking about almost 3 hours. At that you would be queued for your second match before you played in your first.

If you look at this another way, matches run every 6 minutes so in 168 minutes you will have 28 matches. With 6 teams in each match that is 168 teams in queue. That would be more teams in queue than there are competing in the division. Not to mention that there was barely enough space behind fields to queue 5 matches (30 teams).

If FIRST stays with the same pit/dome arrangement as this year I would recommend teams leave their pits 6 matches (36 minutes) before their match time. If it takes 12 minutes to get to the field you will be there 3 to 4 matches (18-24 minutes) early, depending on if you leave at the beginning or end of the 6th match before yours. This gives you a bit of time to strategize with your alliance before you are loading onto the field or a few minutes to leave the pits late or have a longer time from pit to field.

I know of nothing that says you must stay with your robot while in queue, I want you nearby but don't have a problem if you choose to watch a couple matches from the ends of your division field (behind the drivers station) with your robot behind the field.

I will be queueing next year as well so let me know of any constructive thoughts you may have regarding the queueing.

I am not sure if we are connecting on the same point. I think the queue length should be shorter, not longer. If you take the 24 minutes early (I think that's the estimate we were given, and it ties with the 18-24 minutes you suggest) x the 7 matches we played, that's 168 minutes of time in queue (not minutes per match, but cumulative time spent in queue). That's a lot of time, and our kids were really feeling it by the end of the weekend. Strategy conversations typically take only a few minutes during qualifying rounds and teams can always meet in the pits if they want to. I would really prefer if we cut the number of matches in queue from 4 to 2.

[Doug G]

Originally Posted by Cory

I still don't understand why people are complaining about penalties. How hard is it to stay the heck away from a robot that's in a loading zone?

It absolutely baffles me that after four months of knowing that you WILL get a penalty if you hit someone in the loading zone, people still haven't figured out that you don't push a robot that's loading.

As I said before, and I'll say again, it's really not that hard to avoid penalties.

While at the regionals, I think many of the penalties could have been avoided, however at nationals, I noticed a major decrease in penalties, however, they still played a major role. And many of those penalties were mostly incidental / accidental, but nonetheless they still occurred. Attached is a 30pt penalty on our team because we collided with another team, which then hit a tetra, which then hit a robot in a human load zone. We still won the match and wouldn't urgue the call anyways, it interfered with them loading. I think the whole loading zone issue this year caused a lot of grief, they're may have been a different solution. I also noticed the youngsters working near the auto loaders almost getting clobbered every match. I wouldn't want my youngster that close to some of those robots.

Originally Posted by Cory

Suggestions for next year-

*Another big peeve of mine was the fact that rankings were never shown on the field throughout the weekend at nationals, or any of the three regionals I attended, unlike previous years. PLEASE start doing this again. Having to walk all the way to the pits to see the rankings is fairly annoying, and impossible if you're volunteering on the field.

ABSOLUTELY!!!

[xzvrw2]

It is not the fact that there where 30 pt penalties for hitting the robot in the loading zone, it was the inconsistency that really needs to change. One match a penalty would get called, and the next match it would happen again and it didn't get called. I think that the consistency of the calls should be changed not so much as the penalties them selves.

[dbSparx]

Originally Posted by xzvrw2

It is not the fact that there where 30 pt penalties for hitting the robot in the loading zone, it was the inconsistency that really needs to change. One match a penalty would get called, and the next match it would happen again and it didn't get called. I think that the consistency of the calls should be changed not so much as the penalties them selves.

I think the inconsistency, in part, is driven by the volume of penalties that needed to be managed, as well as the complexity needed to explain each condition. The penalties need to be reduced to a small set of observable outcomes that serve to increase the safety and sportsmanship of gameplay. Many of the things for which penalties were issued (e.g. touching the loading zone with the predefined section of the robot) seemed arbitrary in nature.

[allyphant]

One more thing I forgot to mention in my earlier post...

While watching the final matches from the balcony, I noticed that Team 45 Teknocats was sitting in front of us and that everytime an award was announced, the entire team was required to stand up and applaud. As polite as this behavior was, they completely obstructed the field of view and spectators sitting behind them could not see what was going on on the field or which team was recieving the award. Several people politely asked them to sit down but they replied that they would "get yelled out for being rude". I agree that applauding another team's achievements is polite and courteous, however, a repetitive and forced standing ovation becomes increasingly meaningless the more frequently it occurs. Soon it becomes a mere mechanical motion, completely devoid of meaning. Next thing you know, teams will have to light fireworks with their barehands, do sommersaults and backhand springs in order to express their appreciation.

[David Gaylord]

Originally Posted by dbSparx

I am not sure if we are connecting on the same point. I think the queue length should be shorter, not longer. If you take the 24 minutes early (I think that's the estimate we were given, and it ties with the 18-24 minutes you suggest) x the 7 matches we played, that's 168 minutes of time in queue (not minutes per match, but cumulative time spent in queue). That's a lot of time, and our kids were really feeling it by the end of the weekend. Strategy conversations typically take only a few minutes during qualifying rounds and teams can always meet in the pits if they want to. I would really prefer if we cut the number of matches in queue from 4 to 2.

Alright, now I understand what you were saying, for the most part. What do you consider "in queue". I don't consider a team queued until they are at the field. If a team leaves 4 matches prior to their own they will arrive and be the second match in queue on the field. In the past when we made pit announcements we had to make the final call 2 matches prior to make sure the team had enough time to get to the field. For this reason we like having 2 full matches queued up on the field.

24 minutes was just a recommendation, you don't get penalized for not using that time. Your team doesn't have to leave 24 minutes before your match time if they don't want to. They can wait until 12 minutes, but don't expect the field to wait if it takes you 13 minutes or the field is a match ahead of schedule. We hate to see teams missing matches so we are a little generous with the amount of time we recommend.

Throughout the championship Newton went from 3 matches fully queued (all 6 teams) all the way to about 5 and then back to about 1. This was largely due to the field getting behind schedule and then getting slightly ahead. 5 matches queued was too many but I can do little to control the number of matches queued at the field. In past years we could have the pit announcers change the timing of thier match calls as necessary but this year the teams were responsible for adjusting their time to arrive on the field. The 5 match situation was right after opening ceremonies, which went long as I'm sure you noticed. I think many teams stuck with the 24 minute recommendation forgetting that matches were delayed 15 minutes and so were actually leaving 39 minutes early.

[Pat Fairbank]

I was a tad ticked off that only the American National Anthem was played at the opening ceremonies, but I guess it's somewhat understandable considering that 18(?) countries were represented in Atlanta.

I also found the pyrotechnic display which accompanied the Chairman's award to be a bit anti-climatic, considering that everyone could see the technicians scurrying around on the field setting it up. I clued in on it right away, and it took away the surprise for me. I personally think the hidden confetti guns they had last year were better.

Otherwise, I found the Championship to be very well put together, and I commend FIRST for it.

Originally Posted by Billfred

Perhaps something similar to or improving on 296's Sundial concept is in order. On top of the Pit Admin announcements, those announcements (as well as queueing information, whether the fields are ahead or behind, etc.) would then go up on screens placed around the pit area, say at the end of each aisle. Didn't hear it? Just go check the screen.

The alternative way of doing that would be more Sundialish in nature, and probably is a bit cheaper--put all this information out on a website available over WiFi, then have fewer FIRST-operated displays on the floor (closer to two or three, as opposed to six or seven).

I have reason to believe that we just might see something like this next year.

[dbSparx]

Originally Posted by David Gaylord

Alright, now I understand what you were saying, for the most part. What do you consider "in queue". I don't consider a team queued until they are at the field. If a team leaves 4 matches prior to their own they will arrive and be the second match in queue on the field. In the past when we made pit announcements we had to make the final call 2 matches prior to make sure the team had enough time to get to the field. For this reason we like having 2 full matches queued up on the field.

24 minutes was just a recommendation, you don't get penalized for not using that time. Your team doesn't have to leave 24 minutes before your match time if they don't want to. They can wait until 12 minutes, but don't expect the field to wait if it takes you 13 minutes or the field is a match ahead of schedule. We hate to see teams missing matches so we are a little generous with the amount of time we recommend.

Throughout the championship Newton went from 3 matches fully queued (all 6 teams) all the way to about 5 and then back to about 1. This was largely due to the field getting behind schedule and then getting slightly ahead. 5 matches queued was too many but I can do little to control the number of matches queued at the field. In past years we could have the pit announcers change the timing of thier match calls as necessary but this year the teams were responsible for adjusting their time to arrive on the field. The 5 match situation was right after opening ceremonies, which went long as I'm sure you noticed. I think many teams stuck with the 24 minute recommendation forgetting that matches were delayed 15 minutes and so were actually leaving 39 minutes early.

Thanks for the clarification. I guess after the regionals, we were conditioned to move when called. We probably followed the letter of the law more than we had to. It sounds like, based on the variability of the queue length, that your buffer was about what it should be (given that it sounds like you almost bled the buffer dry). I'll have to talk it over with the team to make sure we weren't just being overly cautious.

Thanks for the chat.

[Koko Ed]

Wow.
82 (now 83) posts in the negative thread and only 21 in the posative thread.
C'mon guys.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by allyphant

One more thing I forgot to mention in my earlier post...

While watching the final matches from the balcony, I noticed that Team 45 Teknocats was sitting in front of us and that everytime an award was announced, the entire team was required to stand up and applaud. As polite as this behavior was, they completely obstructed the field of view and spectators sitting behind them could not see what was going on on the field or which team was recieving the award. Several people politely asked them to sit down but they replied that they would "get yelled out for being rude". I agree that applauding another team's achievements is polite and courteous, however, a repetitive and forced standing ovation becomes increasingly meaningless the more frequently it occurs. Soon it becomes a mere mechanical motion, completely devoid of meaning. Next thing you know, teams will have to light fireworks with their barehands, do sommersaults and backhand springs in order to express their appreciation.

So why don't you get up also to show your appreciation, and allow you to see?

[KathieK]

Originally Posted by Pat Fairbank

I was a tad ticked off that only the American National Anthem was played at the opening ceremonies, but I guess it's somewhat understandable considering that 18(?) countries were represented in Atlanta.

I missed the opening ceremonies because I was giving a presentation at the conference. Were the countries represented and acknowledged in the parade? Maybe we should have a FIRST anthem written and played in lieu of a national anthem.

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by KathieK

I missed the opening ceremonies because I was giving a presentation at the conference. Were the countries represented and acknowledged in the parade? Maybe we should have a FIRST anthem written and played in lieu of a national anthem.

uhmmm, I don't think that would go over very well, Kathie.

[Ali Ahmed]

Originally Posted by Koko Ed

Wow.
82 (now 83) posts in the negative thread and only 21 in the posative thread.
C'mon guys.

Human nature.

The thing that I was most ticked off was that only The Star-Spangled Banner was played. At least have recordings of the other ones. Thats all.

[Kyle]

Originally Posted by ali_rockon22

Human nature.

The thing that I was most ticked off was that only The Star-Spangled Banner was played. At least have recordings of the other ones. Thats all.

Although it is the right thing to do, we would have been there for for an hour longer listing to 18 different countries national anthems and all the time in between playing them.

[Chris Fultz]

Originally Posted by allyphant

While watching the final matches from the balcony, I noticed that Team 45 Teknocats was sitting in front of us and that everytime an award was announced, the entire team was required to stand up and applaud. As polite as this behavior was, they completely obstructed the field of view and spectators sitting behind them could not see what was going on on the field or which team was recieving the award.

I disagree with you BIG TIME on this. Since jusst about my 1st event, I have stood up for every award to recognize the achievements of the team receiving the award. Over time, the rest of our students have picked up the habit, and now just about the entire team stands. I did hear a few comments from some of the people sitting above us, which, in my mind, is too bad. I do not intend to change my behavior.

Think about it this way, also - how do you want the crowd to react when YOUR team receives an award?????

Stand up and let the teams know you are excited for them.