Shafted again

[opnickc]

Originally Posted by Paul Copioli

O.K. so being one of the people "shafted" by the morning awards I guess I should say something.

The WFA on Friday is a great idea. It gave people the entire competition to find me (if they dared) and congratulate me personally. I thought it was a good idea. Many people congratulated me that I didn't even know and I thought that was really cool.

With regards to the animation and inventor awards, I do see a change in attitude toward Autodesk and these awards, but I really don't see how the Friday a.m. awards ceremony was part of this. Plain and simple, these awards are pre-determined so why not give them out first? The awards ceremony is already too long as it is. Besides, the opening ceremony never really was a big audience getter but I bet next year the attendance at the opening ceremony will be much higher.

Ed, I can tell you first hand that Autodesk has placed a bad taste in our team's mouth. Does the Website award tell you what tools you must use? Does the Industrial design award tell you what tools you must use? The answer to both these questions is "no." Do the animation awards tell you which software you must use? You bet. Does the Inventor Award tell you what software to ... oh wait ... Inventor Award. The Autodesk guy was looking at our poster in front of our pit showing our robot design and use of solid models. He asked, "who did all the great Inventor work?" We replied, "we used SolidWorks." What he said next floored me. He said, "oh, that's too bad ... never-mind." Are you kidding me? That is ridiculous. The Inventor Award is a joke to me because it EXCLUDES any team that chooses to use a different set of tools to do robot design. Anyone who uses Inventor to do design, don't get me wrong, it is a great tool and keep using it but the award has an ulterior motive that just doesn't sit well with me.

-Paul

I have to agree with this. I've been forced to use 3dsMax for the animation. What if we'd rather use Maya? Or softimage? Or any number of other 3d softwares?

As far as the importance of the animation competition in the first place, I think it should be more tied into chairman's. Animation is a way of expressing ideas through video and audio produced in a spatual world created in the writer's imagination. For as long as I have been involved, the competition has always been the same; 'what appealing aspect of FIRST means the mostto your team'. What's funny is that almost no animations follow this criteria. Everybody wants something new! Why not 'show what your robot can do' or 'what does your team do in your community'? Why not make the animation part of the Chairman's presentation as well as its own competition? And why only 30 seconds? The regional with the most animations had 24, so even if each animation was 2 minutes it take less than an hour to view them all.

Anyway, kind of went off on a rant there. Hope I didn't offend anybody.

[Justin]

Hi Everyone,

I'd just like to say that maybe if we cut some of the Hollywood crap out of the awards show then we would have time to recognize actual achievement of teams. What do I mean...do we really need that guy riding in on a motorcycle?? And telling us about how great he is because he owns it and a really cool car?? Is that the message that FIRST is trying to send?? Be an engineer you'll get cool stuff?? I'm sorry but as a long time participant of FIRST that left a really bad taste in my mouth. To me that seems anti-everything Dean/Woodie stand for. Also the awards ceremony is over produced especially for the audience that watches it...if it really were a national audience fine but it is primarily FIRST people who watch. Also something needs to be done about Dean and his speeches...someone should enforce a time limit. The Google guy's rambling didn't help either. Also let's just play the finals and not have all of this jumping back and forth. Just a few thoughts.

Justin

[Beth Sweet]

Originally Posted by Justin

What do I mean...do we really need that guy riding in on a motorcycle?? And telling us about how great he is because he owns it and a really cool car?? Is that the message that FIRST is trying to send?? Be an engineer you'll get cool stuff??

Quite frankly Justin, yes, I do believe it is. The intent of FIRST is to inspire kids to go into technical and science careers. If we can make kids say "wow, engineers are cool, they drive cool cars and do cool stuff" then yes, I do believe that our objective has been achieved.

I agree that animation is underrepresented, especially after hearing all what has been said in this thread, however, I think that it is very important to keep students thinking engineers are cool. Bring those awards back to the main ceremony by all means, but leave the guys trying to inspire students alone please.

[Alexander McGee]

Originally Posted by Paul Copioli

Ed, I can tell you first hand that Autodesk has placed a bad taste in our team's mouth. Does the Website award tell you what tools you must use? Does the Industrial design award tell you what tools you must use? The answer to both these questions is "no." Do the animation awards tell you which software you must use? You bet. Does the Inventor Award tell you what software to ... oh wait ... Inventor Award. The Autodesk guy was looking at our poster in front of our pit showing our robot design and use of solid models. He asked, "who did all the great Inventor work?" We replied, "we used SolidWorks." What he said next floored me. He said, "oh, that's too bad ... never-mind." Are you kidding me? That is ridiculous. The Inventor Award is a joke to me because it EXCLUDES any team that chooses to use a different set of tools to do robot design. Anyone who uses Inventor to do design, don't get me wrong, it is a great tool and keep using it but the award has an ulterior motive that just doesn't sit well with me.

-Paul

Paul, I respect what you have said here, and understand where you are coming from. However, I would like to point out some facts.

Some teams do use other pieces of software. Maya is one of the favorites, as well as Lightwave and other utilities such as poser. I do most of my modeling in UG or it's cousin solidedge, then I import it to max. Some teams don't even use max at all, and render straight from maya, and then re-construct with some other video editing program to hide the video signature.

Regardless, the thing to keep in mind is that Autodesk is an “Official Sponsor” of FIRST teams, right up there with FedEX. Of course they want teams to use their product, and of course FIRST is going to make the award requirements include their software.

To put this in perspective, perhaps a FedEX rep was wandering through the pits during shipping, and noticed a UPS label on your crate. They would probably wonder / ask why you chose UPS for this shipment, as their company had provided several air bills. Even if you used them all, you would probably continue to use FedEX for your robot crate. I know we did.

These companies aren’t selling this stuff to FIRST. Autodesk doesn’t make huge amounts of money each year by selling FIRST 1000 copies of their software. It is donated, educational material. They get really good advertising, and FIRST provides them with thousands of students who are willing and able to use their software, and get really good with it. Win-win baby.

A true animator won’t stick to one piece of software. I don’t know any animators / CAD guys here at Stryker Instruments who only use WildFire (our companies software of choice). People try new things, to extend their skill and learn.

Autodesk gives us access to very expensive software, and I for one am grateful of that.

-Alex

[Paul Copioli]

Some teams don't even use max at all, and render straight from maya, and then re-construct with some other video editing program to hide the video signature.

Don't you see this as a problem? Why do you have to hide the video signature? IF the steel industry sponsored the design award, would I have to hide the fact that I am using aluminum? I am grateful that Autodesk is sponsoring FIRST, but let's allow any animation to be submitted (and win) not just those composed in #DS. Same with the Inventor award. C'mon, it's called the Inventor Award, not the Solid Modeling Award for Pete's sake.

[ahecht]

Originally Posted by Justin

Also something needs to be done about Dean and his speeches...someone should enforce a time limit. The Google guy's rambling didn't help either. Also let's just play the finals and not have all of this jumping back and forth. Just a few thoughts.

There must be something about inventors and giving long, rambling speeches. Both those guys could use a good speech writer (not to mention a speaking coach).

However, I did like the jumping back and forth, although they could've saved a LOT of time by doing the awards while they were scoring the field. By the time they started the next award, the next match was usually set to go.

[Daniel Brim]

Originally Posted by magnasmific

These companies aren’t selling this stuff to FIRST. Autodesk doesn’t make huge amounts of money each year by selling FIRST 1000 copies of their software.

More.

25 donated licenses per team * 1000 teams = 25000 licenses.

Plus 1 donated license of 3DS/team * 1000 teams = 1000 licenses.
25000
+1000
26000

Originally Posted by Paul Copioli

Don't you see this as a problem? Why do you have to hide the video signature? IF the steel industry sponsored the design award, would I have to hide the fact that I am using aluminum? I am grateful that Autodesk is sponsoring FIRST, but let's allow any animation to be submitted (and win) not just those composed in #DS. Same with the Inventor award. C'mon, it's called the Inventor Award, not the Solid Modeling Award for Pete's sake.

I am all in favor of expanding the name of the awards to visualization award and solid modeling award (name sounds awkward).

On a similar note, does innovation just have to be due with Radioshack? Does sportsmanship only come through J&J? Does entrepreneurship only come through Kliener Perkins? Does quality only come through Motorola? Does creativity only come through Xerox?

Using this logic, does it make sense that the awards are named after Autodesk and yet it is (theoretically) the only software that is used? I think this should be addressed.

[Roushey]

I say us animators band together, I say, we start and finish the 'super-animation' project. Make FIRST recognize how dedicate and talented Animators really are. If we throw something amazing their way, they cant help but notice it. Furthermore, if the construction process is properly documented, It will not only "raise the bar" for future animators, but give them an example of how to create, and shape their own animation entries. The way I see it, its a triple win: Animators involved get more experience, new animators have a template for how to make their own, and it may spur FIRST to pay more attention to us. (Not to mention the fact that it would be a blast )

Waddya say?

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by Roushey

I say us animators band together, I say, we start and finish the 'super-animation' project. Make FIRST recognize how dedicate and talented Animators really are. If we throw something amazing their way, they cant help but notice it. Furthermore, if the construction process is properly documented, It will not only "raise the bar" for future animators, but give them an example of how to create, and shape their own animation entries. The way I see it, its a triple win: Animators involved get more experience, new animators have a template for how to make their own, and it may spur FIRST to pay more attention to us. (Not to mention the fact that it would be a blast )

Waddya say?

I'm all for it, Mike.
Let's spread the word.
We've got to prove our worth to FIRST.
This is a good start.

[corebreach]

Originally Posted by Roushey

I say us animators band together, I say, we start and finish the 'super-animation' project. Make FIRST recognize how dedicate and talented Animators really are. If we throw something amazing their way, they cant help but notice it. Furthermore, if the construction process is properly documented, It will not only "raise the bar" for future animators, but give them an example of how to create, and shape their own animation entries. The way I see it, its a triple win: Animators involved get more experience, new animators have a template for how to make their own, and it may spur FIRST to pay more attention to us. (Not to mention the fact that it would be a blast )

Waddya say?

Niiiice. I'm in.

[Lil' Lavery]

These are the only awards that are known ahead of time aside of the chairmans and EI, which are the two highest honors in FIRST and deserve to go last. Thus that is why they are presented first. The opening ceremony awards are no worse than the closing ceremony. At least every team is there at that point. There were several teams who didnt stay past the last match to watch the winners get their medals, the EI award, or the Chairmans. At least every team is watching the autodesk, website, founders, volunteer, and WF awards. This is NOT an outrage, and by no means should any award be considered lower because it is given out on friday to keep the saturday award ceremony shorter. Its not like they are giving them out during thursdays lunch break or something.
IF you have a problem with the manor in which FIRST deals with its animation and CAD awards, then there are countless other competitions in which you can showcase your skills. There are still a very large number of teams which dont register an entry for one or both of those awards, and therefore its not only FIRST who you feel gives less recognition and respect to you, but your fellow peers on FIRST teams as well. I think your going to have to win the respect of your peers before you win the respect of FIRST itself.
Just look at what 116 has become. The animation team has won respect within the team and now commands large numbers and a great deal of influence on the team as a whole. If you want to command more respect within the FIRST community you have to earn it. Whining and complaining about when your award is given out will not do that.
FLL and FVC had completly seperate award ceremonies, which the involvement from the FIRST staff and the FIRST community was far less. Do you hear them whining about how they get no respect? Just be glad you get to be part of the biggest award ceremony in FIRST at all....

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by DanielBCR

More.

25 licenses per team * 1000 teams = 25000 licenses.

Plus 1 license of 3DS/team * 1000 teams = 1000 licenses.
25000
+1000
26000

Actually, Im pretty sure they donate the software to FIRST...

[Daniel Brim]

Those were the total of donated licences. I'll edit the post to make it clearer

[RoboMom]

Autodesk is asking for feedback. After all the yes/no questions, you can add comments at the end.

Survey link: http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.asp?u=541401197549

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by RoboMom

Autodesk is asking for feedback. After all the yes/no questions, you can add comments at the end.

Survey link: http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.asp?u=541401197549

I did.