Lessons learned 2005: The negative

[dbSparx]

Originally Posted by Mark Pierce

Many of my complaints have already been discussed, such as the long queuing times, which could definitely be handled better.

Here's the rest of my list:

Nearly all the announcing on Curie was not understandable. It sounded like they were yelling into mikes causing incredible distortion. Viewers at home on NASA TV or the Internet felt the same.

The NASA broadcast was terrible, switching fields mid-match, no scores, and the real time scoring (which as already discussed was often wrong) taking up much of the screen. My wife said it would turn off anyone not involved in the program, not excite them to get involved.

The lack of ranking information or even the elimination brackets on the field screen was annoying, but not having updated and correct rankings and awards on the website for our press connections was yet again a real miss. Try explaining results to a reporter who keeps repeating, "but the website says this.." and you get the idea. FIRST still needs a system to generate official press releases immediately after every event. Perhaps that's a project for Google...

The peviously unscheduled, excessively long drivers meeting which conflicted with many teams' planned events was a real annoyance as well. Maybe some of it was useful, but the part I saw was pretty much a waste of time.

Overall the event was successful and a lot of fun. I do plan on posting in the positive thread tonight or during lunch tomorrow.

Thank you!! I can't believe I forgot the drivers' meeting. What a frustrating meeting. I commend their desire to get everyone on the same page, but that should have been taken care of well in advance of the nationals. The last-minute scheduling, as you pointed out, was just unacceptable. Teams, especially large teams from out of town, have to do a lot of preplanning to make these trips come off right. Our drivers missed a team dinner to be in attendance, and we walked away more confused and frustrated by the new interpretations introduced during that meeting. To make matters worse, the calls were no more consistent after the meeting. The problem wasn't the absence of communication, the problem was too many penalties with too much room for judgment.

[AmyPrib]

Originally Posted by allyphant

While watching the final matches from the balcony, I noticed that Team 45 Teknocats was sitting in front of us and that everytime an award was announced, the entire team was required to stand up and applaud. As polite as this behavior was, they completely obstructed the field of view and spectators sitting behind them could not see what was going on on the field or which team was recieving the award. Several people politely asked them to sit down but they replied that they would "get yelled out for being rude". I agree that applauding another team's achievements is polite and courteous, however, a repetitive and forced standing ovation becomes increasingly meaningless the more frequently it occurs. Soon it becomes a mere mechanical motion, completely devoid of meaning. Next thing you know, teams will have to light fireworks with their barehands, do sommersaults and backhand springs in order to express their appreciation.

Perhaps some of the younger teams have not yet recognized the importance of applauding others achievements. It's called GP. It's called, not being a sore loser. It's called, being proud of other teams when they succeed. With your role titled "Leadership", you might consider instilling this type of behavior within your team. Personally, I was appauled at the lack of applause from the balcony section, let alone standing O's. It borders on showing disrespect for others accomplishments. It shows that they don't care others do well. If you were concerned about not seeing the 2 representatives receiving their awards, perhaps you could stand up and cheer for them, as we only stood for maybe 20-30s each award. Team 45 has the utmost respect and consideration for other teams and I don't see how this could even be turned into something negative.

The TechnoKats are not going to refrain from applauding others when they do well, or standing up to do it. The teams that win these awards deserve a standing O. How would you feel if nobody stood up or applauded when you received an award? I have noticed that if the veteran teams don't do this, the arena will be silent. There are some younger teams that do it, but I see many younger teams sitting in their chairs with their hands at their sides. That's sad. There were 3-5 teams from the whole balcony we saw stand up to applaud - the rest only stood up for the wave.

If you think that repetitive standing O's and applause become devoid of meaning, you are sorely mistaken. Sure, maybe there are some people even on the TechnoKats that haven't figured out why we do it.... but they will. They are not "required" to stand up. We encourage it. We do it because we are truly proud of those successful teams and try to encourage other teams to show their support also.

If anything, the Lessons Learned Negative here is that many teams don't show their support for others successes, and that is the negative.

[Max Lobovsky]

Having discussed this with her, let me try to clarify Ally's post: She is not opposed to teams showing their appreciation for other's success. What she, and I, think is inappropriate is for team members to be required to give a standing ovation for every award.

A student on team 45 told Ally precisely this at the competition when she asked why they keep standing ("we get yelled at for being rude"). Now two members of 45 have disputed this claim in this thread, and that's all anyone needed to say about this.

If someone would like to argue that it is appropriate for teams to be required to show some insincere appreciation, that is another matter.

[Mini-D67]

Originally Posted by xzvrw2

Also, in regards to the 30 point penalties, if you got that, you automatically lost the match. I think that is very unfair.

Thats not always the case. I remember one finals match where one team got a 30 pointer and still won by 10...

The only thing I didn't like this year was the lack of calls on ramming/pinning. Not once did I see a 10 pointer thrown for ramming, nor did I ever see an acurate count on pinning. Those are my 2 major driver pet-peeves...

Other than that, I love this years compitition!

btw, Sir Charles rules!

[Cory]

Originally Posted by the_short1

. . .. .. the inconsistancy at the toronto vs GLr regional stunk. . at GLR the refs were awsome.. they looked like veterans.. at toronto.. they all looked like.. 20s... !.. and as such they made some REALLY bad calls, not only for our team, but for many others that i watched.. it was horrible.

I think it's completely wrong of you to make an assumption that because a referee is under a certain age they lack the competency to understand the rules and officiate. How does someone "Look like a veteran"? I've been in FIRST 5 years and I'm almost 19. I can pickup some random 50 year old dude off the streets, who's never seen FIRST, and because he's 50, and I'm 19, you assume he understands the rules better, and is more competent?

Please think before you speak.

[Jill1022]

I agree that it was very difficult to scout when teams in front of you were standing up and blocking the view of the field. At times my scouts and I would have to skip entire matches because of this.

But instead of having teams stop standing up and cheering, how about they move to an area where they know no scouts are? Or going further back in the stands to cheer. Or having sections designated for scouts only? I think that's the best idea.

[allyphant]

Originally Posted by Cory

So why don't you get up also to show your appreciation, and allow you to see?

that was not the point of my argument. read it again.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by Jill1022

I agree that it was very difficult to scout when teams in front of you were standing up and blocking the view of the field. At times my scouts and I would have to skip entire matches because of this.

But instead of having teams stop standing up and cheering, how about they move to an area where they know no scouts are? Or going further back in the stands to cheer. Or having sections designated for scouts only? I think that's the best idea.

Possibly coming soon to a regional near you. If you live near Houston, anyways. We're looking at options to make something like this happen at LSR next year.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by allyphant

that was not the point of my argument. read it again.

I did indeed read your post. You complained that you could not see because the team in front of you was standing and cheering.

What am I missing?

[allyphant]

Originally Posted by Cory

I did indeed read your post. You complained that you could not see because the team in front of you was standing and cheering.

What am I missing?

Several people politely asked them to sit down but they replied that they would "get yelled out for being rude". I agree that applauding another team's achievements is polite and courteous, however, a repetitive and forced standing ovation becomes increasingly meaningless the more frequently it occurs. Soon it becomes a mere mechanical motion, completely devoid of meaning.

My point is that enthusiastic appreciation for other teams is wonderful but insincere expression is not. (hence the thing about repetition, forced, meaningless mechanical motion) I under the impression that members of one team was required to give every other team a standing ovation. I hope when other teams applaud for my team, they do it because we have earned it and not because someone else is telling them to do it.
You can also read MaxLobovsky post for further clarification.

[J Flex 188]

I'm merely pointing out the fact that a predominantly large portion of ref's at GTAR and the majority of Canadian events are Woburn 188 Alumni (established in FIRST in 1998 and Canada FIRST 3 years prior) and as such they are all incredibly well versed in how exacting a toll penalties can take on every team, indeed, we have been the victim of a few bad calls and benefited from a few bad calls ourselves. Age shouldnt really and doesnt really determine how people call games. That being said however, I agree with Slimbo's point (not just because he is on my team ) that perhaps a committee of ref's could be established per region of competition that would travel to each respective competition and serve as a referee adivsor, or something of that nature.

Other than that, this has been a fantastic final season.

For all of you guys complaining about turnaround in Championships, ask anyone who attended the Waterloo regional. We had maybe 40-50 minutes at most between matches, usually it was closer to 20-30.

Originally Posted by the_short1

YES!.. i 100% agree with taht.. considering the magnitude of the 30point penalties especially (hitting robot in loading zone, we hit once and they were not in process of loading, they just moved onto there to get in our way)
. . .. .. the inconsistancy at the toronto vs GLr regional stunk. . at GLR the refs were awsome.. they looked like veterans.. at toronto.. they all looked like.. 20s... !.. and as such they made some REALLY bad calls, not only for our team, but for many others that i watched.. it was horrible.

[Koko Ed]

Fighting with other teams over cheering for other teams during an awards ceremony is a sad precedence. This has been a rough year for GP in FIRST.

[allyphant]

Originally Posted by Koko Ed

Fighting with other teams over cheering for other teams during an awards ceremony is a sad precedence. This has been a bad year for GP in FIRST.

there was no fighting but merely a discussion that emerged from the inability to see the field. Just because i choose to address an issue that was bothering me does not mean i was not being a gracious professional. I chose to confront the issue politely and sensitively instead of throwing around hurtful words. Please don't assume. If I have unintentionally offended anyone with my choice of words, i apologize.

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by allyphant

there was no fighting but merely a discussion that emerged from the inability to see the field. Just because i choose to address an issue that was bothering me does not mean i was not being a gracious professional. I chose to confront the issue politely and sensitively instead of throwing around hurtful words. Please don't assume. If I have unintentionally offended anyone with my choice of words, i apologize.

It's not just you and your team. There's been alot of anger on these pages this year (and I'm just as guilty as the next guy). I don't know what it is but I have never seen Cheifdelphi have so many arguements and confrontations. The fact that this thread is five times the size of the positive thread proves that. Hopefully cooler heads will ease up the tension in the offseason.

[AmyPrib]

Originally Posted by allyphant

Several people politely asked them to sit down but they replied that they would "get yelled out for being rude". I agree that applauding another team's achievements is polite and courteous, however, a repetitive and forced standing ovation becomes increasingly meaningless the more frequently it occurs. Soon it becomes a mere mechanical motion, completely devoid of meaning.

This is only the second half of your post. But either way, if one of our students told you they were required to stand, then they have it wrong and obviously don't understand yet why we cheer others on. I'm not convinced it would have made much difference at the time if those few had remained seated, because the other 95% of us were standing on our own free will. The most we do to "require" them to stand is make a hand motion implying "come on, stand up and cheer", but have never yelled at, or punished someone for not doing so.. That would be silly.

Either way, it shows support from a team, regardless if they were less than willing to show it. People don't always do things because they like it, but they do it anyways...for whatever reason. And while I can honestly understand your point of view, I'd personally rather have my teammate standing and applauding less willingly (not forced), than sitting on their hands and ignoring the awards looking like a bored, unhappy, sore loser, even if they are. Negativity clearly shows more in one situation over the other and we don't want a less than positive team. We try to teach them GP, and standing to applaud is one small way we do it.
That is all on this... I think we can put it to rest now that everyone is understood.

Originally Posted by KokoEd

The fact that this thread is five times the size of the positive thread proves that. Hopefully cooler heads will ease up the tension in the offseason.

Maybe it's because negative things are easier to argue than positive things.. Now that we've been able to explain our thoughts, I promise I will post no more in this thread, as I don't have any negative things left to say regarding this thread. I apologize for the space the discussion has taken already but hopefully others can learn something from it