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Unread 08-05-2005, 21:08
KenWittlief KenWittlief is offline
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Re: Atheists?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BurningQuestion
"If I were God, I would never EVER let people have to suffer, or die unjustly, or allow the preconditions to exist in the FIRST PLACE to let those things happen!"

Why does he banish people to hell for acting in the way that he created them to act? None of this is fair!

How can God send good people to hell? Again, this does not seem remotely fair to me, especially because God is claimed to be just and forgiving.

-- Jaine
Wow Jaine - you hit on a couple of the most often raised issues of religion

you sorta brushed over the answer to all these questions - freewill, or freedom. As humans our freedom is our most cherished right, and it is also the thing that gets us into the most trouble.

When you have children the hardest thing of all is knowing when to stand in their way, and when to let them go

but at some point you have to let them go completely, or there is something seriously wrong with you as a parent. Imagine if your parents went with you to summer camp? If your parents went with you to your prom? On your honeymoon?

The old adage: if you love something, let it go.... if its comes back to you...

I think there must be some aspect of our character that God cherishes above all the pain and suffering we experience in our lives, and that our personal freedom and freewill to choose is somehow inter-twined with it

if Adam had no way to sin, no way to rebel againts God, then he was not free. If I flip a coin a hundred times and everytime it comes up heads, you can be sure that coin has two heads, it is not free to come up tails.

As for God sending people to hell, it sounds like most of the situations you have listed are things other people have told you, not something God told you. Go back and read the ten commandments. There were specific punishments for people who broke them, and in many cases specific ways people could repent and make offerings to have their crimes forgiven

but none of those punishments say "though shall not kill, or God will send you to hell" - seriously, look it up yourself.

I think part of the problem young people have with understanding religion in our time is that so many people interpret or simply make-up their own version of what it means to be a christain, or how other religions are followed - its a real mess.

A genuine spiritual search takes many years, research and study, compairing many religions and sources of information - its not something that can be left to someone else, not something you can trust to someone else to figure out for you - its a path we all have to explore on our own.
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Unread 08-05-2005, 21:58
Jaine Perotti Jaine Perotti is offline
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Re: Atheists?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenWittlief
As humans our freedom is our most cherished right, and it is also the thing that gets us into the most trouble.

When you have children the hardest thing of all is knowing when to stand in their way, and when to let them go

but at some point you have to let them go completely, or there is something seriously wrong with you as a parent. Imagine if your parents went with you to summer camp? If your parents went with you to your prom? On your honeymoon?

The old adage: if you love something, let it go.... if its comes back to you...
This is a very good analogy which allows me to understand your perspective much clearer. However, this analogy is based on a very key assumption - the assumption that freedom is good. As humans, you are correct - we do cherish freedom and the power to make our own decisions. However, here is another associated philosphical question:

Is the freedom that we enjoy good to have in the first place? How much freedom is too much?

Would you knowingly give freedom to a person you knew would commit a crime, or would cause others to commit crimes?
In this way (another somewhat extreme analogy, but it illustrates my point), this would be similar to allowing a criminal to roam free, instead of being put in jail, in the hopes that he would come back and "return" to what society deems as moral conduct. Not all freedom is good. Not all criminals (in fact, very few) would return to ethical behaviors on their own accord. In the same way, God should have known (because he is omnipotent) that not all people would return to him. He should not have allowed it in the first place.
Quote:
if Adam had no way to sin, no way to rebel againts God, then he was not free.
I think that if God was truly benevolent, then he would not have made us to love freedom (which according to you, seems to be the reason which necessitates the granting of free will). That way, he could have kept complete control over us, nothing bad would happen, and we would still be happy. Adam should not have been given free will in the first place, nor should he have been given the desire for freedom. This would have been the most logical way for God to solve the problem of wanting to keep his people happy, and still keeping the world a safe, wonderful place. I still view the granting of free will as cruel, because God gave us a trait that we could in turn use to violate the laws he set before us to follow - and consequently punish us for these reasons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenWittlief
As for God sending people to hell, it sounds like most of the situations you have listed are things other people have told you, not something God told you.
I am not talking purely about the Ten Commandments, although I do see your point when you use them as an example.

However, in the examples I listed, I was talking about those who belong to a non-Christian religion, or those who have no religion at all. I believe that somewhere in the Bible it says that not believing in God is a terrible sin. (OK, that was a bit sarcastic - I KNOW that in the Bible, not believing in God is a terrible sin.) In the Bible, it states that those who do not accept Jesus Christ as the Son of God and as their Savior will be cast into a lake of fire at the Second Coming, while those who are followers of Jesus will be taken into heaven. I believe that this is unfair because, in my opinion, just because you do not profess faith in Christianity does NOT mean that you are a bad person who deserves to be tortured for eternity. I know many people whom I admire and respect who do not profess a faith in Christianity, and I know that they are good people because of the personal standards of ethics that they hold and believe in. This is what I was talking about when I wrote about the injustices of sending good people to hell. Those who hold different beliefs about ethics and religion are rejected by the Christian God, even though they may be good people. I am a strong believer in understanding other religions and cultures, and I find it offensive to judge them in a manner that is so "black and white."

I hope this clarified some of my statements.

-- Jaine
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  #48   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 08-05-2005, 22:06
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Re: Atheists?

Just a quick point, the way theistic philosophers have historically addressed the problem of free will is that it is inherently good. Furthermore however, evil exists in the world toward a greater, if impossible to forsee, good. This basically shuts down any argument against the Problem of Evil, because it will always be imposible for humans to prove otherwise. Religious debate is at a standstill because of this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenWittlief
you are mixing together the physical implementation (the CD) with the SW itself (1s and 0s)

how fast you can write or read SW onto a CD or other storage media has nothing to do with the SW being written, the limitation is the physical media
That's not what I'm saying. I'm pointing out that in order to have any information, software must take a man-made form, must be represented tangibly. In execution, software is nothing more than a conceptual tool. In this capacity, it is not subject to the laws of physics. When you put it on a CD to store it (or in RAM, or on a hard disk), you physically alter the CD. The (debatable) fact that the CD does not change mass does not change the fact that software on a CD is a physical manifestation. Software per se does not "exist" without some physical manifestation. It is impossible to prove otherwise.

Let's use another example. You are saying that a concept can exist without a physical representation. How then, do you explain the colour green? Can you conceive of or define green without it ultimately coming down to a range of light wavelengths? I propose that you cannot (lack of knowledge about wavelengths is no excuse).

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenWittlief
the CD or floppy disk or MP3 player memory does not change in weight (mass) when you erase it, or load it up with SW.

Force = mass times acceleration. If I put 1000 blank CDs in my car and drive around, then write very complex code onto those CDs, my car will not require any change in force to drive around, because those CDs still have the same mass.

Something with zero mass is not governed by our laws of physics - because it is not a 'physical' object.
This is flat out incorrect and is partly why your logic goes off track. The laws of physics do not only apply to objects.
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Unread 08-05-2005, 22:37
Jaine Perotti Jaine Perotti is offline
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Re: Atheists?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathan lall
Just a quick point, the way theistic philosophers have historically addressed the problem of free will is that it is inherently good. Furthermore however, evil exists in the world toward a greater, if impossible to forsee, good. This basically shuts down any argument against the Problem of Evil, because it will always be imposible for humans to prove otherwise. Religious debate is at a standstill because of this.
Well, I don't care to further exhaust this topic, but I will anyways because I do want to put in my two cents on this.

The idea that God would implement evil to achieve a greater, if impossible to foresee good, seems flawed to me because it is awfully unecessary, in my opinion. Why do millions of people need to die in order to achieve a greater good, when God could have eliminated any problems at the onset of creation, by creating everything perfectly to begin with? Is he just trying to play games with us by watching us have wars, and kill each other, just so he can see if his litttle experiment is going to work? I don't think that any argument is "shut down" because of this, at least in the Christian instance - I think that it is only made deeper. It is further evidence that God is contradictory because he is both perfect, and the creator of evil. Maybe there is some purpose that can't be understood, some problem in the overall universe that he feels he must solve - however, according to what I see, there is no purpose to torture, pain, and killing - no justification for the deaths of millions, all to solve a problem that God, being all powerful, could have solved the very instant he created us. If there is a purpose, I don't see how it pertains to us since we can't comprehend it - therefore, it seems unecessary.

This touches on why I claim to be agnostic - I do not know for sure whether there is or is not a reason for the pain in this world, and I do not know if it is God(s) who is causing it to happen, and whether or not he/she/it/they has a good reason for doing so. I guess in that sense, you are right Jonathan, that it is impossible to ever prove. Same thing goes for every philosophical argument that can be made. However, I don't agree that anything is "shut down." The very act of stating "evil exists in the world toward a greater, if impossible to forsee, good" opens up realms of possible discussions and counter arguments. One can still investigate the nature of reality, even if it is impossible to prove actual truths.

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Unread 08-05-2005, 23:29
KenWittlief KenWittlief is offline
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Re: Atheists?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BurningQuestion
Is the freedom that we enjoy good to have in the first place? How much freedom is too much?
I feel that unless we are free our lives are meaningless. If I am forced to act only in one way, then of what value am I as a person? I have no choice.

If I have to wake up everyday and say "hey God I love you" or He will strike me dead, then do those words I say everymorning mean anything at all?

I can program my computer, so that everytime I turn it on it writes on the screen "I love you Ken, Im so thankfull for all the things you have done for me, and I cant tell you how happy I am to be your computer!" do you think I would get a warm feeling every morning when I hit the power button?

but if I have a son or daughter, who I raise to be independant, and they accomplish many great things in their life, and when they are 30 they come to see me and say "I love you dad, Im so thankfull....."

!

I think you are missing the flip side of freedom. So many incredible acts of love and kindness have been done by humans. I cant even begin to list them all - if we had no choice, then those things would be meaningless.

I can only conjecture that what we do really means something to God - our actions and our feelings are important to Him.

As for fairness - I dont know how God will deal with everyone - I can only hope He will be fair as only God can be, that He wont treat people the way we treat each other when we are at our worst.
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Unread 08-05-2005, 23:29
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Re: Atheists?

Ken's comments on free will presuppose the nature and existence of a certain deity...in a thread concerning atheism, I think that bears a little closer scrutiny. Assuming that the Christian god exists, and that that god is omnipotent (as is traditionally assumed), any so-called free will is necessarily conditional. If God can grant free will, he can also suspend it.1 (And, he can create the illusion that it exists, or the illusion that it does not!) If God doesn't want something, he can most certainly put a stop to it, if he chooses. Then again, it's an open question why something that he didn't want would even exist, because he had the power to preemptively prevent it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Wittlief
I can program my computer, so that everytime I turn it on it writes on the screen "I love you Ken, Im so thankfull for all the things you have done for me, and I cant tell you how happy I am to be your computer!" do you think I would get a warm feeling every morning when I hit the power button?
To quote Captain Kirk, "What does God need with a starship?" Similarly, what does God need with a warm feeling every, or any morning? God, by virtue of omnipotence could create such a feeling without going to the trouble of creating a world and people to frolic upon it. This doesn't clarify anything.

But what does God value the most? Freedom? Justice? Benevolence? Happiness? Ken assumes that there is something that God likes about us, that supercedes other considerations (like suffering)—but isn't it a little bit strange to assume that such a thing exists, but not know what it is? This reeks of wishful thinking; that there must be a purpose to all this suffering and these misdeeds, lest the Christian worldview be tarnished. I phrase this like a self-fulfilling prophecy, because in a very real sense, it is. The endemic unwillingness to deal with the thought that the complex structure of God and free will might be a fantasy leads people to believe in the comfortable explanation—that it's all part of God's plan. Of course, it could be so—but wouldn't it be nice if we could actually prove it?

Furthermore, if our free will is linked to this greater purpose, as Ken suggests, are we implying that our actions are taken with the implicit consent of an omnipotent god? Once again, maybe we should endeavour to know more about the morality of God—because it seems that it may not exactly agree with the traditional definitions of good and evil.

But since this is a thread about atheism, I'll stop counting the angels dancing on the pinhead, and note that while many people believe in elaborate structures of religious belief, any given set of such beliefs with which I am familiar, taken as a whole, is ultimately unfounded; many beliefs are laughably incorrect, many are hopelessly unprovable, and (I would be remiss to not point out) some are quite reasonable. The mere fact that some religious ideas work well in society is not a reason to expect every such idea to be good. Similarly, it is not a reason to take these religious ideas at face value (such as the more-than-ten commandments)—these stand or fall on their own merits, irrespective of whatever mythology exists around them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Wittlief
I think part of the problem young people have with understanding religion in our time is that so many people interpret or simply make-up their own version of what it means to be a christain, or how other religions are followed - its a real mess.
In the spirit of disbelief as a default position, I wonder what gives anyone the monopoly on determining what it means to be Christian (or another similar religion, as the case may be). I know—let's wait for God to lend an opinion! I think that a problem with most religions is that they necessarily evolve over time, making concessions to slightly different interpretations, enduring a schism or two, and eventually end up with a mess of different beliefs that are only marginally self-consistent. By conducting your own "spiritual search", you might find something that you like, but who's to say that it is even remotely correct?

When dealing with religious belief, it all comes down to the lack of evidence; much is wholly conjectural, and all is built upon the shakiest of foundations. From that, we note that any argument based on the purported truth of some religious tenet must be irrevocably tied to the case for that belief's accuracy. This is the real question—whether or not God permits suffering has no bearing on anything, if God himself is a fiction. And is he? Well, nobody has managed to answer that in any conclusive fashion, without resorting to other unproven beliefs. In essence, this is the core of atheism: it makes no sense to believe in something that can't be supported with a substantial body of evidence, because there are an infinite number of such situations, each of which are supported by the same quantity and quality of evidence; which are true?

In the end, we can't prove or disprove much when it comes to omnipotent deities themselves, but there's certainly a lot that we can consider rationally, as far as religion goes.

1Let's leave the postulation that God can create a stone so heavy that he can't lift it out of this, and assume that he can undo whatever he does. If this postulation were true, we would end up dealing with Aquinas' farcical redefinition of omnipotence—meaning "not quite all-powerful, when convenient".

Last edited by Tristan Lall : 08-05-2005 at 23:36.
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Unread 08-05-2005, 23:42
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Re: Atheists?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathan lall
Software per se does not "exist" without some physical manifestation. It is impossible to prove otherwise.

...This is flat out incorrect and is partly why your logic goes off track. The laws of physics do not only apply to objects.
Physics is about the physical world - thats what the word literally means - matter and energy

SW is neither matter or energy. I can create SW in my mind, without ever writing it physically, or even speaking the algorythm out loud

but I can run that program all the time. If I figure out its better to put my pants on by putting my feet in first than it is to pull them on over my head, thats SW - thats an algorythm "FGIF" (Feet Go In First)

I can then run the FGIF SW everyday of my life, and there is no way you could study the cells of my brain and find the SW in there

There is a branch of science that deals with this: information technology. Physics is not involved at all. You cant apply force to information - it does not accelerate - it contains no mass or energy, but information does exist

an example of information defying the laws of physics would be prayer. We are physical beings - we can only communicate with each other by putting information into some physical form - but the concept of praying - that God can know what we are thinking, that we can communicate 'telepathically' with God starts to open some insight

if we could communicate telepathically, would it take 2 seconds for a telepathic message to reach an astronaut on the moon? or would it be instantainious?
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Unread 09-05-2005, 00:00
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Re: Atheists?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenWittlief
I can then run the FGIF SW everyday of my life, and there is no way you could study the cells of my brain and find the SW in there
Not yet there isn't. But inferring from what we do know scientifically, it is more conceivable to suggest the FGIF algorythm is stored chemically in the brain. To suggest otherwise can only be premised upon a belief in the supernatural, that the brain is "magical," which is simply your stance in the first place. A circular argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenWittlief
There is a branch of science that deals with this: information technology. Physics is not involved at all. You cant apply force to information - it does not accelerate - it contains no mass or energy, but information does exist
It certainly does exist. In a tangible form somewhere. Locked up in a computer or locked up in the mind, it does not transcend the laws of nature and physics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenWittlief
an example of information defying the laws of physics would be prayer. We are physical beings - we can only communicate with each other by putting information into some physical form - but the concept of praying - that God can know what we are thinking, that we can communicate 'telepathically' with God starts to open some insight
This is of course based upon a rather hefty conditional premise, and is thus a bad example. But humouring you, I could just as easily say that God created a law of physics such that prayer was instantaneous. It cannot be proven either way, therefore you cannot say this is untrue.
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Unread 09-05-2005, 00:31
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Re: Atheists?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tristan Lall
...But since this is a thread about atheism, I'll stop counting the angels dancing on the pinhead, and note that while many people believe in elaborate structures of religious belief, any given set of such beliefs with which I am familiar, taken as a whole, is ultimately unfounded; many beliefs are laughably incorrect, many are hopelessly unprovable, and (I would be remiss to not point out) some are quite reasonable. ...

In the spirit of disbelief as a default position, I wonder what gives anyone the monopoly on determining what it means to be Christian (or another similar religion, as the case may be). I know—let's wait for God to lend an opinion! ...


By conducting your own "spiritual search", you might find something that you like, but who's to say that it is even remotely correct?

When dealing with religious belief, it all comes down to the lack of evidence; much is wholly conjectural, and all is built upon the shakiest of foundations.
The idea of conducting a spiritual search of your own stems from the fact that we enter this world with no understanding, and are given parents and an environment that we did not choose.

Many people simply accept the beliefs of their parents, or their community. But my experience has been that, by studying the different religions that humanity engages, you come to understand the differences, and the simularities. In the end you see what seems right to you, on your own level - what is external to you that matches what is inside you.

But that is not the end of it. If I can generalize, eastern religions teach that we can ascend, that we are born at one spiritual level, and we can reach a higher level through hard work, study, prayer, mediation, and eventaully you can tap into the shared 'cosmic concouseness' that all living things are a part of. If you follow these teachings, and you learn to mediate and you fast, and you focus on your spiritual growth, you will personally experience things: an inner peace, deep meditation, some people have visions... things actaully happen to you personally

and isnt that what religion is really about? not that there is some distant God out there who created the world and gave it a good spin, then left us to ourselves. Religion is about God interacting with humanity. The bible for example, the Hebrew people hardly ever went more than a generation or two without God interacting with them personally, or sending an angel to communicate a message. They had no doubt that God was real.

So where does that leave us? from your post again:

Quote:
By conducting your own "spiritual search", you might find something that you like, but who's to say that it is even remotely correct?

When dealing with religious belief, it all comes down to the lack of evidence; much is wholly conjectural, and all is built upon the shakiest of foundations.
your spiritual seach leaves you with an understanding of your own nature, what seems to be right for you personally

but do not be too hasty to declare that God no longer interacts with us personally. When I was in college I tried to figure out how I could know if God existed. Could I ask for a sign? Could God somehow prove to me that He was real?

what sign would I accept? What if someone knocked on my door in the next 10 seconds and said "God sent me to talk to you" would that be a perfect sign? or might it happen to be someone going through my neighborhood, saying that to everyone?

The answer I finally came up with, the only way I could know if God existed, would be for God to communicate with me, to reveal Himself to me, personally. It seemed like that would be too much to ask for at the time, but millions of people throughout the world have experienced exactly that. A personal interaction.

In hindsight, that is the only way our freewill can remain intact - we have to decide what is right for us, personally, first. Otherwise, if a 100 foot tall God appeared to everyone on Main street tomorrow, and said "Im God and this is the way its going to be" then what else can we do? listen to Him, or die? No more freewill.

If you got the absolute proof of God's existance that you seem to be demanding, then what will you do afterwards? What meaning would there be to anything you do after that point? What other choice would you have?

Last edited by KenWittlief : 09-05-2005 at 00:37.
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Unread 09-05-2005, 00:53
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Re: Atheists?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenWittlief
In hindsight, that is the only way our freewill can remain intact - we have to decide what is right for us, personally, first. Otherwise, if a 100 foot tall God appeared to everyone on Main street tomorrow, and said "Im God and this is the way its going to be" then what else can we do? listen to Him, or die? No more freewill.
How do we know what God is? Is he 100 feet tall, or 2.5 inches? This is just the problem: we simply don't have sufficient evidence to ascertain the existence, much less the nature of any deity. Even if this God of Main Street demonstrated his capacity to emit lightning from his eyes, or summon a plague of tarantulas, we wouldn't know if he were your chosen God, or merely a powerful impostor.

An omnipotent god could impose on us the understanding that he is the one described scripturally, but short of that, we can't prove on our own that any powerful deity is that deity, because powerful deities (by their nature) are assumed to have capabilities that are currently beyond our capacity to prove (otherwise, we would hardly have cause to call them deities).

As for personal interaction with God, you'll grant that people sometimes believe crazy, even stupid things (Santa Claus, homeopathy, Elvis lives, etc.), and that sometimes, they refuse to be convinced of the falsehood of those beliefs. How can I be sure that your personal interaction with God was real, and not a delusion? Similarly, I could conjure up such an experience, if I were to experiment with certain substances—would you believe me if I said that I personally interacted with God?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Wittlief
If you got the absolute proof of God's existance that you seem to be demanding, then what will you do afterwards? What meaning would there be to anything you do after that point? What other choice would you have?
Why would I need special meaning, or another choice? If it were real, and absolutely, provably so, then so be it. There is no dichotomy here.

Last edited by Tristan Lall : 09-05-2005 at 01:00.
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Unread 09-05-2005, 01:09
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Re: Atheists?

your life would have no meaning. You would have to do what you were told and your personal freedom would be gone.

In general humans place a high value on personal freedom.

BTW, Ive never met a single adult in my life who told me that Santa Claus had been in touch with them. In fact I have never met any adult who belives there is a man at the north pole living with elves and raindeer

but 90% of the world population believes there is a God of one sort or another, and those who claim a personal interaction has occured have very similar experiences.
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Unread 09-05-2005, 01:37
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Re: Atheists?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BurningQuestion
Is the freedom that we enjoy good to have in the first place? How much freedom is too much?

Would you knowingly give freedom to a person you knew would commit a crime, or would cause others to commit crimes?
In this way (another somewhat extreme analogy, but it illustrates my point), this would be similar to allowing a criminal to roam free, instead of being put in jail, in the hopes that he would come back and "return" to what society deems as moral conduct. Not all freedom is good. Not all criminals (in fact, very few) would return to ethical behaviors on their own accord. In the same way, God should have known (because he is omnipotent) that not all people would return to him. He should not have allowed it in the first place.
Want another extreme analogy?
Years ago, I read a news story about a group of parents belonging to some way-out religious group. A "prophet" told them that their children would grow up to be monstrous criminals (robbers, murderers, and such), so they threw their babies into the ocean to ensure that such a horrible thing would not happen. They did with their children what you seem to be suggesting that God should have done with people: total prevention of evil.

Somehow, I have to insist that my judgment of that religious group as being "way-out," and that prophet as being a false, evil prophet is reasonable. I think our government judged those parents as being murderers (I didn't see any follow-up news stories, so I'm merely assuming the parents went to prison, based upon the usual laws governing our society). Even if a mother is certain her child is going to make bad decisions in life, she has no right to utterly prevent those bad decisions by preventing her child's becoming an adult (either by outright murder, or by being a "control freak").

What about known criminals (and other wrongdoers)?
When I was 14 years old, I did a terrible thing. My parents were shattered when they learned what I had done. We had to make a decision about how to deal with the situation. I am sorry to say that we made the wrong decision, and I wound up adding wrong to wrong. My bad decisions cost my parents a lot of money, too. Many parents, after having their trust violated in this way, would put their daughters on restriction forever. They would never want to let their daughters out of their sight! However, my parents told me that even though I had violated their trust, they had decided to trust me again. They felt I had made a mistake, and learned from it. They did not punish me.

If you put a criminal in jail, one day you will have to let her out, unless she committed a very serious felony. Her parole board has reports on her behavior in prison, but they do not know how she will behave in society. (Prisons are not known as places where criminals reform.) Currently, the news media are filled with stories about sex offenders. Many people believe that this class of criminals is bound and determined to commit crimes again. Yet the law requires that they be released back into society when they have met the requirements of their sentencing. Should their neighborhoods be plastered with flyers warning that a Very Evil Person lives there? Should we lock them up and throw away the key? Easier still, why not just put them to death? Or is there hope that they could change?

If God chose not to "lock us up and throw away the key" (at least, not in this life), is he behaving any worse than one of our parole boards? Would you call our parole boards evil for releasing a felon who has "done her time?" Would you call parents evil if they decide to hope for the best for their wayward children?
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Unread 09-05-2005, 09:53
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Re: Atheists?

one of the problems with this is the concept that God is all knowing.

Does that mean God knows everything about the present state of the universe, including people

or do we include the future? Does God know what we are going to do, before we do it?

I dont think He does, because that also negates our freewill. If God knows what we will do as individuals, before we decide to to those things, then we are programmed and we have no real choice - no freewill.

I think God knows what we are capable of doing, both good and bad - He knows what our limitations are - we cannot sprout wings and fly, one man cannot grow enough food to feed the whole world - one man cannot care for all the sick and elderly

and I think God is able to interact and deal with any situation that we might create

but I think we really are free - that God does not know what we will do until we decide ourselves.
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Unread 09-05-2005, 15:45
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Re: Atheists?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenWittlief
or do we include the future? Does God know what we are going to do, before we do it?

I dont think He does, because that also negates our freewill. If God knows what we will do as individuals, before we decide to to those things, then we are programmed and we have no real choice - no freewill.
I believe that God does know what we will do in advance, but I also believe that we have free will.

There are two basic camps on this issue. The first side is predestination, which says that God knows everything because he set it up and decided what would happen. According to that viewpoint, there is no freewill. The other idea is known as foreknowledge. The basic idea from here is that God knows everything which will be done, but he didn't script it.

One possible way that God could see the "future" is through dimensions. If time is the 4th dimension, then what if God was "in" the 5th? Just as a (3D) sphere appears to the beings of flatland (a 2D world) to be a circle, our time appears to us as a single point where it intersects our dimension, even though it may extend infinitely in other directions which do not intersect with the 3rd dimension. Therefore, if God was in the 5th or higher dimension, he would be able to see all of time. The knowledge the "future" that God possesses wouldn't really be the future for him, because he isn't contained by time.

But I suck at philosophical arguments, so I'll be an engineer...
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Unread 09-05-2005, 17:25
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Re: Atheists?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KarenH
Want another extreme analogy?
Years ago, I read a news story about a group of parents belonging to some way-out religious group. A "prophet" told them that their children would grow up to be monstrous criminals (robbers, murderers, and such), so they threw their babies into the ocean to ensure that such a horrible thing would not happen. They did with their children what you seem to be suggesting that God should have done with people: total prevention of evil.

...

Even if a mother is certain her child is going to make bad decisions in life, she has no right to utterly prevent those bad decisions by preventing her child's becoming an adult (either by outright murder, or by being a "control freak").
I think the most fundamental problem that both you and Ken are having with my opinions is the fact that you are both making your opinions based on the premise that God and humans have a relationship exactly parallel to that of a parent and child. I can see why you would make this assumption - God created us, just like our parents created us. However, I do find that there are distinct differences between humans and God, and a child and their parents.

I don't believe that I ever said that God should have behaved in a way similar the irresposible actions of the parents you described above. I most certainly do not believe that God should have killed Adam and Eve. However, I think that God should have set up his relationship with Adam and Eve in a way much fairer than he did. I am not, as you seem to be suggesting, proposing that the only option that God had to prevent evil was to kill the human race, or "lock them up and throw away the key", as you said in your corollary to the analogy I made about criminals. I am suggesting that God should have done something entirely different. Human beings should have been created differently from the onset, which is what I stated earlier:
Quote:
Originally Posted by BurningQuestion
I think that if God was truly benevolent, then he would not have made us to love freedom (which according to you, seems to be the reason which necessitates the granting of free will).
Read on for my explaination, because I guess it was not clear enough the first time.

According to the Bible, God created everything; the heavens and the earth. Because God was all powerful, he chose to make all of his creations in the exact way that he wanted them. He could choose exactly how he would create us. Ken, as a human being, loves freedom, and describes this sentiment below:
Quote:
your life would have no meaning. You would have to do what you were told and your personal freedom would be gone.

In general humans place a high value on personal freedom.
God obviously created humans to be lovers of freedom. However, with a parent and their child, a parent has no control over the exact nature of their child. Their child will be born human, and therefore a lover of freedom and a possesor of free will - this is a fact, and the parent has no control over this matter. The key difference between God and a parent lies in how much they have control over their creations - God chose to make us lovers of freedom. Parents do not control whether or not we desire to be free, but God does.

I can see how you would think I was being too extreme if I had said that God should never have given us free will, even though we desire freedom (this is NOT what I sais, although I believe this is how you interpreted my words). If God did not give us free will, and we wanted to be free, then yes, I can see how our lives would have no meaning to us, because it would be impossible for us to pursue any personal goals and fulfill what we felt to be our purpose. In that case, I agree with you.

However, I think you missed what exactly I was questioning with my earlier statements about Christianity. I asked the question: Why did God create us to want freedom? Why couldn't he have made it so that we do not want freedom? He had the power to determine our likes and dislikes, so why couldnt he have done this? If he had made it so that we did not want freedom, then our lives would still be purposeful if he did not grant us free will. We would be happy that way, and it would be impossible for us to commit any evil. Humans happy + No Evil in World = Good in the Eyes of God.... right? It seems only fair to me that God would have created us in a way that would allow us to be kept under control, yet happy at the same time.

Can you see now the difference between God and a parent? A parent can not choose whether or not to create their child to desire freedom of will. You are correct that a parent who is over-controlling of their child, or even kills their child, for the purpose of preventing them from harming others - has serious problems and is being unjust - just as God would be being unjust if he did not allow us to have free will, but still gave us the desire for freedom.

However, since God has alot more control over the nature of humans than a parent has over the nature of their child, he should have made us differently!! He should have come up with a different way to make us feel that our lives have purpose - other than freedom of will. Parents have no control over what will make their child happy, but God does. He should not have made us to love freedom in the first place; instead he should have made us love some other aspect of life that would make us feel happy and complete. Freedom of will is extraordinarily dangerous, and God should have known that! Why did he create us to love it so much? Why did he make it so that if he were to rescind our free will, we would be unhappy? It should be the opposite - God should have given us a means to obtain happiness other than by making our own choices; something that would not be the cause of the death, torture, and unhappiness that has plaugued millions upon this planet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KarenH
Many people believe that this class of criminals is bound and determined to commit crimes again. Yet the law requires that they be released back into society when they have met the requirements of their sentencing. Should their neighborhoods be plastered with flyers warning that a Very Evil Person lives there? Should we lock them up and throw away the key? Easier still, why not just put them to death? Or is there hope that they could change?
If this analogy were truly representative of the condition that exists between humans and God, then God would not have created the preconditions for the aforesaid criminals to be criminals in the first place. God would never "lock them up" or "put them to death", because these people would never have had the option to commit those crimes in the first place (this is if God had chosen to create humans in the way that I feel he should have - if he really wanted to make people happy and live in an evil-free world). Furthermore, this thread is primarily concerned with religion, not the ethics of this country's legal system. I personally believe that criminals should be given a chance to change. We as humans have the option of change. However, I have a problem with the Christian interpretation of God when it comes to the issue of having these choices in the first place.

I don't understand why God would have created us in a way that allows people to commit terrible crimes against one another. I think that he should have made human nature differently, in a way that would not be harmful to other people, and would still leave us satisfied. The solution I proposed above is just one of many options that I feel God could have had when it came to designing human nature. Another one might be that he could have made us to have free will, but not have made it a part of our nature to believe that killing anther human being is OK. He could have made us more tolerant of those who are different, and could have made it unnatural for humans to fear what they are not familiar with - such as people with a different skin color, religion, or sexual preference. Can you imagine what this world would be like if God had not given humans the ability to hate? What if God had given humans all of the attributes that we have today, except for the one which allows us to hate? It would have saved so many people's lives if he had done that! If I were a God who cared about my creations, why would I design them in such a way that they were susceptible to hatred and violence? Why would I make them capable of killing one another? Why couldn't God have made humans peace-loving creatures, who would rather die themselves than kill another person?

This, I do not understand. This is the problem I have with Christianity.

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