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  #61   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-05-2005, 18:02
KenWittlief KenWittlief is offline
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Re: Atheists?

Janie,

I understand the position you are taking, and the nature of your question. I think if you got things the way you say you would have preferred it, that you would not be very happy with the results.

There are answers to your question. If I never failed at anything I would not treasure my successes. If I had never been lonely I would not cherish my friends

we could create a society without crime and without violence - all we have to do is surrender our freedom, let someone else tell us what to do with every minute of our lives

we could even be pumped full of morphine so we would feel happy all day. Thats not what I want, and all I can say is for some reason, that is not the way God wanted us to live.

I do know that in the biblical frame of reference our lives are nothing but an instant. What is 70 years compaired to 700 years? its 10%

compaired to 70,000 years? its 0.1%

what is 70 years compaired to eternity? mathematically its zero.

when we are 100,000 years into eternity this short life will be like nothing but a bad dream. What purpose does it serve? I think only God can answer that.

But to look at this from a larger perspective, whether or not we understand why God has done the things He choose to do, has no effect on whether or not He exists.

If I dont understand the tax laws, or how to file my tax return, or if I think the IRS is unfair, that does not make the IRS dissapear, and it does not make me exempt from paying my due tax.
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Unread 09-05-2005, 21:14
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Re: Atheists?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenWittlief
your life would have no meaning. You would have to do what you were told and your personal freedom would be gone.
So what meaning does my (and similarly, your) life have, that would be stripped away by the simple act of meeting a god? That god, presumably being omnipotent, would have the power to make me do what I was told, but unless he did so, freedom, free will, and my own actions would not be affected. You seem to expect that I would be compelled to do this god's bidding, just because I was aware that he was a god—this is nonsensical. Look to the mythologies of ancient Scandanavia, Greece and Rome, rather than Christianity to see why that assumption is erroneous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Wittlief
BTW, Ive never met a single adult in my life who told me that Santa Claus had been in touch with them. In fact I have never met any adult who belives there is a man at the north pole living with elves and raindeer

but 90% of the world population believes there is a God of one sort or another, and those who claim a personal interaction has occured have very similar experiences.
Are we making the appeal to popularity again? Remember that correlation is not equivalent to causation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Wittlief
one of the problems with this is the concept that God is all knowing.

Does that mean God knows everything about the present state of the universe, including people

or do we include the future? Does God know what we are going to do, before we do it?

I dont think He does, because that also negates our freewill. If God knows what we will do as individuals, before we decide to to those things, then we are programmed and we have no real choice - no freewill.

I think God knows what we are capable of doing, both good and bad - He knows what our limitations are - we cannot sprout wings and fly, one man cannot grow enough food to feed the whole world - one man cannot care for all the sick and elderly

and I think God is able to interact and deal with any situation that we might create

but I think we really are free - that God does not know what we will do until we decide ourselves.
Neither you, nor Thomas Aquinas can have it both ways; you either believe God is omnipotent, or do not. (This is the cop-out that I footnoted earlier.) To satisfy Christian dogma, it is necessary that God be omnipotent (or else the dogma would be wrong...imagine that), and yet, you propose that there is a power which God does not possess. He would therefore not be omnipotent. You instead propose that God is very powerful—that's fine, and well supported in other mythologies, but it isn't a traditional Christian idea. It might be possible to skirt this issue by saying that God chooses to disregard certain information, (which he, through omnipotence, would be able to access) and this creates a condition of free will. But that would mean that God could change his mind, and snap his fingers (or twirl a wand, or click his ruby-slippered heels, or whatever he does to make stuff happen) and make free will vanish. Do you consider the spontaneous elimination of free will to be a real threat to your personal freedom?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Wittlief
But to look at this from a larger perspective, whether or not we understand why God has done the things He choose to do, has no effect on whether or not He exists.

If I dont understand the tax laws, or how to file my tax return, or if I think the IRS is unfair, that does not make the IRS dissapear, and it does not make me exempt from paying my due tax.
Aren't you forgetting something? The fact that we can easily show that IRS exists (what's written on the tax form—"IRS", and a number which you can call to ask "does the IRS exist"); there is no such contact information on God's purported work, no direct line to the divine.

The whole point is that you expect us to presuppose the existence of God, and use that as the justification for the things you advocate (most prominently, belief in God). This is a circular argument.

Last edited by Tristan Lall : 09-05-2005 at 21:16.
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Unread 09-05-2005, 23:47
KenWittlief KenWittlief is offline
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Re: Atheists?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tristan Lall
So what meaning does my (and similarly, your) life have, that would be stripped away by the simple act of meeting a god?
presently you have an out. You can say that God is a myth, and therefore the things that have been communicated to us (the character of God, that we are expected to emulate) are simply made up, therefore you do not have to follow the things He has taught us.

But if you dig down deep, and the things that one religion or another speaks to you, matches your inner nature, and you decide "this is the way I will live" even though you dont have absolute proof that you will be rewarded in the end

then that accounts for something - that says something about your own nature and character, that you will do the right thing simply because you believe it is the right thing

but if God steps in, and confronts you in person, before you make that personal decision, then anything you do after that is out of fear, or out of barganing. That is what you lose if God appears to everyone.

You say 'show me God first, then maybe I will do what He wants'. Christianity says, do the things God desires from you, and God will reveal Himself to you, only to you, in His own way.


Quote:
That god, presumably being omnipotent, would have the power to make me do what I was told, but unless he did so, freedom, free will, and my own actions would not be affected. You seem to expect that I would be compelled to do this god's bidding, just because I was aware that he was a god—this is nonsensical.
no, its human nature. If you are faced with an overwhelming force you will act in a certain way out of fear. Do you drive a car? do you ever exceed the speed limit? if you see a patrol car, do you keep right on speeding or do you slow down until you think no one is clocking you?

Quote:
Are we making the appeal to popularity again? Remember that correlation is not equivalent to causation.
would you say that to a scientist? if 90% of the scientist on earth are able to repeat an experiment and get the same results would you say that means nothing, and plea a logical fallicy? God is not governed by the laws of science. God is a being, an intelligent independant being. You cannot conjure Him up by saying the right words, or by faking a prayer of repentace. God interacts with whom He chooses, in His way. The fact that 90% of humanity believes there is a God of some sort means that by a wide margin, most people have personally gathered enough evidence to sway their opinion. I have not asserted that you should believe because everyone else does, I am saying that based on the testimony of millions of people something supernatural is interacting with humanity.

Quote:
Neither you, nor Thomas Aquinas can have it both ways; you either believe God is omnipotent, or do not. (This is the cop-out that I footnoted earlier.) To satisfy Christian dogma, it is necessary that God be omnipotent (or else the dogma would be wrong...imagine that), and yet, you propose that there is a power which God does not possess. He would therefore not be omnipotent. You instead propose that God is very powerful—that's fine, and well supported in other mythologies, but it isn't a traditional Christian idea. It might be possible to skirt this issue by saying that God chooses to disregard certain information, (which he, through omnipotence, would be able to access) and this creates a condition of free will. But that would mean that God could change his mind, and snap his fingers (or twirl a wand, or click his ruby-slippered heels, or whatever he does to make stuff happen) and make free will vanish. Do you consider the spontaneous elimination of free will to be a real threat to your personal freedom?
now you are playing word games. omnipotent means 'all powerfull' and you inteject the power to know the future and the power to change His own character. The future does not exist. We have no scientific evidence that time flows both ways - only theories. Being all powerfull or all knowing does not include knowing something that does not (yet) exist.

Other religions assert that God is whimsickle, that His character and nature changes with His mood. Christainity teaches there are three things God cannot do:

1. He cannot change. God is holy and perfect. If He changed in any way, He would no longer be holy, or perfect. This means He does not take back His word, He does not take away what He has given to us, and that includes our freewill.

2. God cannot learn, because He already knows everything. I have already stated I dont think God knows what we will do as individuals, but He does know all the possibilities, so there is nothing we can do to surprize, or teach God.

3. God cannot change the past - to do so would negate our freewill (boy freewill keeps coming up a lot! :^)

Quote:
Aren't you forgetting something? The fact that we can easily show that IRS exists (what's written on the tax form—"IRS", and a number which you can call to ask "does the IRS exist"); there is no such contact information on God's purported work, no direct line to the divine.
there are hundreds, maybe thousands of people who dont believe the IRS has the authority to collect income taxes (for various reasons) and they dont pay taxes. Part of the nature of the IRS is its authority - the fact that they dont believe that authority has been granted doesnt exempt them from taxes.

Christianity and other religions do say that we have a direct open line to God. And you have the personal experiences of millions of people as I pointed out before - ask someone why they believe in God? did they have a personal experience? a miracle in their life? An undeniable awareness of Gods presence?

Quote:
The whole point is that you expect us to presuppose the existence of God, and use that as the justification for the things you advocate (most prominently, belief in God). This is a circular argument.
I have not asked anyone to presume, assume or presuppose anything - in fact, the opposite - I pointed out that each person must undertake their own spiritual search and find their own answers. That is not circular reasoning.

I can say one thing, you will not find God, or disprove God with an equation or logic or an experiment in a lab. We are emotional creatures - we are not Vulcans - many of the things we do in our lives we do because there is an emotion attached to that endevour.

If we are children of God, then God would not be a logical being either, His primary motive would be emotional as well.

God may be all-powerfull as we choose to define those words, but we can still bring Him happiness, and we can cause Him pain and sorrow. Thats where the connection is.

Last edited by KenWittlief : 10-05-2005 at 00:08.
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Unread 10-05-2005, 00:54
Andy A. Andy A. is offline
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Re: Atheists?

Ken-

I think this is where the discussion between Atheism and Religion breaks down.

Generally, the Atheist asks for proof that god exists.

Generally, the religious states that it can not be proven, only accepted.

There are people, my self included, who can not accept something that can not be proven in consistent manner. Clearly, you believe very deeply in the existence of God, and you clearly have your reasons for that belief. I don't question it and I don't want to change it. I try very hard to understand where these beliefs come from. It's a constant issue between a person I love very much and myself. Just as I have trouble understanding why such an intelligent young woman would believe so many irrational things, she has trouble understanding why I can't accept something she _knows_ is right and doesn't question at all.

I ask her why she knows it's right. 'Because I have faith, and I belive' is the usual response.

Try to understand that, to me, that statement just doesn't hold water. It doesn't make sense. I couldn't live my life like that. It's as alien a thought to me to belive as for her to not believe. There is a fundamental difference in how we view one little word. In most other respects, we are very much the same. But when the word 'faith' is concerned, we are as opposed as can be. Faith to her is the corner stone of her life. It is the first thing she thinks of when she wakes, and the last when she goes to bed. Faith to her represents everything she aspires to be; a good Christian in the eyes of God. Faith means god and god means faith. The two are intertwined and connected.

To me, faith is antithetical to the very way I live my life. Faith represents to me self dilution, blindness, a weakness. How could I believe something that goes against everything I know to be proven truth? 2+2=5. How could I just accept that although there is no proof that any of it is true? It would be like lieing to myself.

Some simply can not manage faith. I won't presume to say that all the atheists on this board, or in the world, are faithless. As has been stated, atheism is a broad term, and there are many different kinds of atheist. I'll try to just speak for my self, but I imagine my feelings are shared.

To me, faith is different from trust. Trust is earned. I trust my family, because more often then not they have been trustworthy. I trust my friends for the same reason. I even trust people I've just met, to an extent, because most people I've just met are again, trustworthy. People have proven to me that they can usually be trusted. I have evidence.

Faith isn't trust. Faith is faith.

I am told to believe in God.
Why, I ask.
You just have to believe and/or have faith that He is real, and He loves you.
Why?
Because.

The more I ask 'why', the more I am told because. Thats what my discussions usually come down to with religious friends. They can't tell me why, and I can't tell them why not. The lack of evidence simply doesn't bother them, and they can't understand why it should bother me so much.

I can trust, but I can't just have faith. Any religion requires faith at some point. You need faith to believe in God. Theres no way around it. You just have to be able to accept something as being true that can not be. You have to accept something that doesn't follow any of the rules. It's like accepting that 2+2=5 to me. I just can't do it, no matter who says it's true or how many say it's true. It just doesn't follow the rules I see everything else follow.

As always, I'm not trying to dump on anyones religion, or make statements that anyone feels they have to defend. I wouldn't bother trying to defend against anything I've said. My girlfriend can already do a better job of that, I assure you (did I mention she's intelligent?). I just wanted to maybe convey where I think some atheists are coming from. We could get stuck in an endless loop, one side asking for proof the other stating that proof doesn't matter. That doesn't accomplish anything. But it ends up happening because neither side understands why it's important to the other.

I applaud Ken for posing the questions of what being an atheist means, and answering every question put to him. Equally, I applaud everyone who has voiced their views on what being an atheist is, means and why. That takes guts these days- Atheism isn't a very popular view (has it ever been?). I especially thank everyone for keeping this thread civil, interesting and alive. I hope that this kind of discussion keeps a home here, because I think it has value (certainly more then pickup lines).

So keep up the good work.

-Andy A.
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Unread 10-05-2005, 08:43
KenWittlief KenWittlief is offline
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Re: Atheists?

Andy,

we are on page 5 and I apologize if I am starting to mix peoples posts together, was it not you who said you think the universe is knowable, that we are able to grasp everything, and eventaully we will understand everything?

You metioned something about "how could I have faith in something when I know its not true?" I going to assume you are talking about the apparent conflict between science and religion - things that science says are different from what religion says. The age of the earth, or the universe, or the origins of man, evolution.

This is a point where christianity and other religions part. The bible is 66 books written by 40 authors over a period of thousands of years, but its purpose is to communicate a unified message to us, the understanding of our relationship with our Creator. It is not intended to be a physics book. It is not intended to be a history book. Scientific or historical information that it contains is only there as part of the understanding of the ways God and humanity have interacted over the centuries.

People that try to turn the Bible into a science book or a history book end up on their face. Scientific knowledge is in there, history is in there, but its not complete.

A good example that people often bring up is the middle ages, when religious leaders insisted the earth was flat, because the bible speaks of the '4 corners' of the earth - not only was it flat, it was a sqare too!

If you look into this seriously the original word used (in hebrew) actually refers to the 4 quarters of a sphere, the four half hemispheres. The hebrews were not mathemeticians, and did not have a developed language of geometry - these words were not comonly used. You can also find other places that say, viewed from a distance the earth is circular, or spherical, and that God hung the earth in space 'on nothing'.

But if you go back, the text these things were taken from were not discussions about the shape of the earth - it was talking about some aspect of our relationship with God.

That is the message of the bible - the thing that christianity is suppose to communicate - our relationship with God. That message is very clear, and I think you will have a hard time proving that aspect is in error.

As for faith - faith is an emotional issue, not a scientific one. Can you love someone unless you have faith in that person, and faith in human nature? Loving someone and trusting your life to them is not logical. You cannot prove that your loved ones love you back (a problem that wealthy individuals often face). You could test someones love: put them in a contrived situation and see how they respond (but that would be a creepy thing to do - if you love someone you have faith in them, and you dont test them).

The thing I have faith in as a christian is that Gods character is something I should emulate, and that God loves me. Im not especially worried about how old the earth is, whether or not the earth was flooded (totally or locally) or how many generations existed between Adam and Jesus.

Your Creator loves you personally - that is the message. That is the issue of faith. That is what we believe.

Does God exist in the first place? If love is being poured out on you like a river, it must be coming from somewhere.

Last edited by KenWittlief : 10-05-2005 at 12:21.
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Unread 10-05-2005, 11:24
Andy A. Andy A. is offline
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Re: Atheists?

Ken-

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenWittlief
You metioned something about "how could I have faith in something when I know its not true?" I going to assume you are talking about the apparent conflict between science and religion - things that science says are different from what religion says. The age of the earth, or the universe, or the origins of man, evolution.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KenWittlief
Does God exist in the first place?...
Ken, I don't really take issue with what the bible says about the age of the earth and such either. I, and I think the majorty of christains are beyond even arguing about that (although I do worry about Kansas a lot). It would be foolish this day in age to even try to argue those issues either way.

The problem is that I have to belive in God in the first place to accept the bible as anything more then a book written in the bronze age. With out god, the bible holds no more relgious meaning to me then the equivelnt text of the Anazazi. Maybe it's a historical curiosity, but you wouldn't guide your life by it, because you already know the truth about God.

The bible doesn't prove the exsistence of God, as nothing does or can. Before any other aspect of Christianty (or any thiestic religon) can be belived, you must first accept the exsistenice of God, a god, gods, ghosts, elves, talking rabbits or any number of things that simply can not be proven true or disproven. Can you beyond any doubt prove to me that elves don't exsist? Don't bother saying that no one has ever proven they do! Lack of proof isn't proof of nonexsistentice, right? Besides, elves can turn invisible and operate out of phase with the rest of the universe, which is why there are no pictures. Since you can't prove that they don't exist, you have to accept that they do, and maybe if your lucky one day one will talk to you and show you his elvish city.

Ok, so I'm getting a little to sarcastic here. But do you see my point? This is why the debate between Athisem and Religion doesn't usally get anywhere. Before you can seriously expect an athiest to accept your arguments on what the nature of the Bible, God and Christainty is, you must first provide some credibilty for God. Since that isn't ever going to happen with out some more burning bushes and booming voices from the sky in our everyday lives, I'm not liable to smack my self on the head and say 'oh, now I get it! God exsists because Ken just told me he does!'

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenWittlief
As for faith - faith is an emotional issue, not a scientific one. Can you love someone unless you have faith in that person, and faith in human nature? Loving someone and trusting your life to them is not logical. You cannot prove that your loved ones love you back (a problem that wealthy individuals often face). You could test someones love: put them in a contrived situation and see how they respond (but that would be a creepy thing to do - if you love someone you have faith in them, and you dont test them).
Thats where you and I disagree. I'm sure a lot of people disagree with me, but the distinction I've made is very real to me. Faith is blind, trust is earned. I don't have faith in people, I have trust. Those I love have proven to me, not in a contrived test but every day through action, that they are trustworthy. Again, I draw a very clear distiction between trust and faith. I apply to that to my life alone, but it makes a whole lot of sense to me. I don't expect you or anyone else to completely understand what that means because I know I don't articulate it well. But, faith is a word that means 'trust in the untrustworthy' to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenWittlief
If love is being poured out on you like a river, it must be coming from somewhere.
Who said anything was being poured onto me? It's using these metaphorical assertions, and speaking of them as fact, that really bug a lot of atheists. I've never seen or heard of love being poured onto anyone, and I don't understand what you even mean by it. I don't know what you mean when you say it must be 'coming' from somewhere. I've always thought that the love I feel, like any emotion I might feel, is rooted in my mind, and my mind alone. No outside forces, no deity's, no voices in my head. My love is my own, and doesn't come from a god. I rather think that the notion that love only exists because god is pouring it out of a bucket on us cheapens the emotion.

-Andy A.
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Unread 10-05-2005, 12:44
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Re: Atheists?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenWittlief

As for faith - faith is an emotional issue, not a scientific one. Can you love someone unless you have faith in that person, and faith in human nature? Loving someone and trusting your life to them is not logical. You cannot prove that your loved ones love you back (a problem that wealthy individuals often face). You could test someones love: put them in a contrived situation and see how they respond (but that would be a creepy thing to do - if you love someone you have faith in them, and you dont test them).
Sorry to hijack the thread but this comment about love intrigued me.


Yes, you can love someone and not have faith or trust in them. If you can't than I'm not human, because out of all of the people I love, I trust only three, and sometimes even then, it's with hesitation. Two of the people I don't trust are my parents, but you cannot tell me I do not love them. Why is love not logical? I know it can be irrational, and even crazy, but I think there's logic behind it too. If you buy a puppy, and you feed it, play with it, pet it and take care of it, it's only logical for that puppy to love you. I also think a lot of people do test the people they love, whether they know it or not, maybe not with contrived situations, but by pushing limits and such.

I'll now return you to your regular discussion.

Heidi
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Unread 10-05-2005, 13:04
KenWittlief KenWittlief is offline
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Re: Atheists?

Andy,

Lets look at this from a logical and scientific angle then. If you find an ancient document, that contains either historical or scientific information, or information and insite into human nature

then the information it contains is either correct and accurate, or its wrong. Would you agree with that?

For example, if this ancient document says the universe had a beginning, before the beginning matter, energy, empty space and even time itself did not exist, and then the universe was created 'from nothing' - we can check into that - we can study the universe and see if it always existed, if its in some repeating cycle, or if something like the big-bang brought the universe into existance 'from nothing'.

Now if this ancient document says that information was gathered by astronomical observation, or was obtained from 'someone' who communicated it to us, that does not change the validity of the information itself, right?

Hitler made this mistake. He rejected Einsteins work and theories, because he would not accept 'jew science' - he rejected the facts because he rejected the source.

What am I getting at? The bible contains incredible insite into human nature. When Jesus preached to the masses the law of the land was an eye for an eye, and justice was brutal - society was brutal. People were amazed when He explained the rules existed to show us our own weaknesses and shortcomings, but the way to live together is through love, forgiveness, reconcillation and kindness. Love for our friends and love for our enemies.

It was a totally outragious concept at the time. Now we have lived for hundreds of years with the 'golden rule' - so it seems more natural for us, but back then it was new information, and in other parts of the world it is still a foreign concept.

So heres the thing: is the information correct? Are the teachings of Jesus the best way to live? If you put the concepts to the test and live that way, is your life better or worse?

And if its better, then does it really matter where the information came from? If the knowledge of human nature is accurate then it stands on its own.

Prophecy in the biblical sense had three components: a prophet would communicate: 1. this is how it was, this is how we got to where we are now and 2. this is how it is now - this is whats going on and here are your options and 3. this is whats going to happen next: if you do A then BC&D will happen, else if you do E then XY&Z will happen

if we cant be certain about the past part, and the future part hasnt happened yet, all we have to go by is the now part - that we can test. If you follow eastern religions your life will go in one direction. If you believe in karma then your life and your interactions with others will go another way. If you treat people the way you would want to be treated (regardless of how they treat you) then you are on a different path

Is this proof? is this evidence? Science says drop a hammer and it will fall and obey F=MA. Jesus says if you do A then BC&D will happen.

So you try A and you see BC&D happening. you watch other people doing E and you see them experienceing XY&Z

is that proof? Proof of the information, yes. Proof of the source?

if the application to your personal life proves to be correct, then does it validate the source? Does the source really matter?

I guess at some point you would have to figure out how a carpenter and a couple of simple fishermen 2000 years ago had such a profound insite into human nature, or how Moses knew the universe had a beginning. If the information did not come from them, then from where?

But the information itself stands on its on merits.

Last edited by KenWittlief : 10-05-2005 at 14:47.
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Unread 10-05-2005, 13:16
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Re: Atheists?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MissInformation
Sorry to hijack the thread but this comment about love intrigued me.


Yes, you can love someone and not have faith or trust in them.
that is an excellent point. I think part of the reason is that hope is a major component of love.

Love is something we choose to do, not a squishy feeling that overwhelms us. We do love people we are at odds with and I think part of the reason is we are holding out hope that our love will reach that person, and the differences will be reconciled.

If you were absolutely certain that a person is going to cause you pain and grief for the rest of your life, and there was no hope of the situation ever improving, would you still want to have a continuing relationship with that person?

My faith in human nature tells me if Im kind and loving to someone else, that person will be affected by my actions, for the better.
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Unread 10-05-2005, 14:59
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Re: Atheists?

Wow this definatly strayed from the point of this thread.
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Unread 10-05-2005, 21:10
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Re: Atheists?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BurningQuestion
I think the most fundamental problem that both you and Ken are having with my opinions is the fact that you are both making your opinions based on the premise that God and humans have a relationship exactly parallel to that of a parent and child. I can see why you would make this assumption - God created us, just like our parents created us. However, I do find that there are distinct differences between humans and God, and a child and their parents.
Not "exactly parallel"--which is why I started my post with the phrase "extreme analogy," which is the same words you used earlier. Analogies can be useful as illustrations, but sooner or later they always break down, logically, because they are only analogies. And the analogy of the misguided parental murderers IS extreme.
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Unread 11-05-2005, 00:12
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Re: Atheists?

I think that Andy has captured the spirit of what I'm getting at rather well. As I read Ken's posts, I can't help but notice the repeated use of concepts that, in order to be valid, require the existence of the Christian god, or Jesus, or some other aspect of Christian scripture. At the heart of the matter, therefore, is the question of how to verify these that these prerequisite things are real and true—after all, from a neutral perspective (not even atheistic—rather agnostic in the strictest sense), it makes sense to look before one leaps; what if it's not only a lie, but in fact, the Norse gods are real, and they condemn devout Christians to the basement of Niflheim? How can you possibly know for sure? What if you're wrong?

Constructing beliefs around a fundamental uncertainty, and then using those beliefs to make the uncertain seem certain is one thing that I can't stand, from a philosophical point of view—the circularity of it lends it credence, because everything seems to fit; upon reflection, though, it is apparent that everything builds upon uncertainty, with the sheer volume of the belief disguising the fact that it is all conjectural, hinging upon that uncertain premise. (Hence, "We Recycle"....)
For example:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Wittlief
Christainity teaches there are three things God cannot do:

1. He cannot change. God is holy and perfect. If He changed in any way, He would no longer be holy, or perfect. This means He does not take back His word, He does not take away what He has given to us, and that includes our freewill.

2. God cannot learn, because He already knows everything. I have already stated I dont think God knows what we will do as individuals, but He does know all the possibilities, so there is nothing we can do to surprize, or teach God.

3. God cannot change the past - to do so would negate our freewill (boy freewill keeps coming up a lot! :^)
It is clear that, to accept these points as valid arguments in support of Ken's concept of omnipotence, one would have to accept a slew of premises concerning the nature and existence of God—to me, since I am unconvinced of those premises, citing teachings that build upon them without offering any proof of their own seems to add volume, but not substance.


I think that Ken feels that his creator was God, and that that god set down some specific principles that Ken should hold in high esteem. The trouble with faith, applied injudiciously, is that it can justify anything. For example, the suggestion that "[i]f love is being poured out on you like a river, it must be coming from somewhere" was used to imply that God exists; but why couldn't it imply that Gaia exists, or that one's loving family exists, etc.? Even if we accept the premise at face value, why assume that it is a reflection of God, when, in fact, it could be a representation of any number of concepts, or maybe just a coincedence signifying nothing special at all?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Wittlief
if the application to your personal life proves to be correct, then does it validate the source? Does the source really matter?

I guess at some point you would have to figure out how a carpenter and a couple of simple fishermen 2000 years ago had such a profound insite into human nature, or how Moses knew the universe had a beginning. If the information did not come from them, then from where?

But the information itself stands on its on merits.
Indeed, if you don't care about the veracity of the source, you can make a strong case for religion—but religion stripped of the legendary aspects becomes (principally) a set of moral and societal values. If, by chance, these are reasonable values, why even associate them with their sources; let them stand on their own merits.

Morality is not the sole domain of religion; the fact that the "golden rule" is accepted widely could be the result of Jesus's proselytization, or it could be the result of the fact that such a rule tends to benefit societies in specific ways, regardless of religion. (The supposition that it was a new concept is also strange—I'd be willing to bet that it predates Jesus by at least a few centuries in written form, and that it could be argued that similar—but uncodified—conventions of behaviour have existed in nature for far longer still.) In short, Christians like Ken seem to attribute their morality to religious influences; I prefer to take a less radical stance, and not assume the existence of excess components. In the end, I do suspect that, from a moralistic point of view, much will be held in common.
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Unread 11-05-2005, 07:53
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Re: Atheists?

Tristan, Andy, Ken and everyone,
Interesting posts so far. I thought I might add a little testimony here. I too went through a time where I doubted the existence of GOD. It was in my enlightened youth during college when all the world seemed so ordered that a supreme being couldn't possibly exist. So, you see, I understand all of your points thus far. I can't prove the existence or non-existence of God but I believe he exists. I can't prove that the Christian God is the only one, but I believe that an omnipotent God would reveal himself in any form that an individual or group might be more willing to accept. So for the Greeks and romans it took several different gods, for Hindus or Buddhists something completely different.
There were a few things that began a change in my beliefs from atheist/agnostic to where I am today. The first was travel which opened my eyes to the natural wonders that abound on this great green planet. The biodiversity is beyond understanding in that pure luck, evolution and coincidence could not have come up with the varieties we have. How does a life form evolve into a narwhal or a kangaroo without some push? The shear amount of geographical features and plant life also astound me. In these things there is so much beauty. If you have ever stood on the rim of the Grand Canyon and seen it for more than the biggest hole on the face of the earth or watched the sunset over the west rim or it fall into the ocean off Hawaii it somehow will touch you forever.
The second thing to change my mind was having children. What a wonder that we are able to put two beings together and form a third. To watch a child grow and learn is too astounding to not have some other force involved.
So I am not giving these things for an argument or explanation just a description of one person's experience and transition. There were a few poignant lines in the movie "Oh God" with John Denver and George Burns that seemed to me to say it best. God said that he gave us a free will but that meant he could not come in change our thoughts or actions. He gave us all the natural resources and intelligence we would ever need and we could use them any way we choose. That meant we could use them for exceptional good or we could screw it up, our choice. We could love our fellow man and advance or we could hate and subjugate and decline. He could make it rain whenever he wanted but why screw it up for everyone so he made it rain inside John's car. The point is for me is that everything could easily be part of God's plan, evolution, the planets, stars, mole rats and the bible, Koran or Stonehenge. These things are not mutually exclusive in my mind.
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Unread 11-05-2005, 08:37
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Re: Atheists?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tristan Lall
How can you possibly know for sure? What if you're wrong?
Tristan,

Good question. How could you possibly know for sure?

If the God of Judiasm and Christianity is real, exactly as it has been reportedly communicated to us by the people who interacted with Him

then, what proof of His existance, and His character would you (personally) accept?

what would you consider acceptable proof?
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Unread 11-05-2005, 11:52
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Re: Atheists?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenWittlief
what would you consider acceptable proof?
An interview with Terry Gross would be a nice start.

-Andy A.
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