The 'nuclear option' has been averted

[Daniel Brim]

Ooh! A thread where I can show my independent point of view! Personally, I am a right-leaning independent. However the issue of filibusters, as a whole, should be a nonpartisan issue. Both parties have been a victim of filibusters before. I applaud the congress for passing a compromise (rare in this era of politics), but I think that changes should be made.

The concept of a filibuster almost seems childish to me. It seems like a tactic stubborn children use in order to get their way: "I'm not leaving until I get that (insert object here)". It just seems selfish to take the floor for an extremely long period of time until you get a semblance of your way.

An anecdote if you will. I have heard of a time when there was a filibuster on the floor. One senator was a pregnant woman. She needed to use the bathroom, but the opposing party had the floor. She could hold it no longer, so she was forced to use a trashcan on the senate floor. She was promptly charged with public urination. I'm sorry I cannot come up with specifics, but I guarantee that it has happened.

Now, some say if the filibuster is eliminated, the minority party will lose its rights. That is a bit of a stretch. Sure, they may not get their way, but that is democracy. The majority of the people want to go along with what the majority party wants. This is just fulfilling democracy.

If supreme court justices cannot be put through without a filibuster (and this is awkward since their time in power is virtually unlimited), then perhaps the system should be changed. I think that the power to put through the president's nominees should be given to the people.

-Daniel

[Conor Ryan]

I'm with Daniel the concept of a Filabuster is childish, its like the little kid who refuses to do anything just because they didn't get their ice cream. But hopefully they can reach an agreement with the bipartisan groups and end it and get on to something more productive as in vote on a judical nominee.

Oh and this just in it looks like they have a 81-18 vote in the senate to end the debate and move on with adding Texas Supreme Court Justice Priscella Owen on the 5th U.S. Court of Appeals.

But i wonder if something like this will happen again?

[Bill Gold]

Filibusters are as much a part of the political process as the presidential veto. Filibusters exist so that the majority party is forced to go slightly to the mainstream (unless the majority is 60-40 or greater) with their legislation, and so that the president appoints slightly more mainstream diplomats, cabinet members, and judges (since the senate has the right to confirm or deny these appointments). It is a legitimate legislative body tool that is used to deter both the majority party, whoever that may be, and the president (even of the same party) from passing far right or far left legislation or from appointing far right or far left persons to the positions I mentioned before.

Filibusters and this threat of changing the Senate rules to reduce the number of votes for cloture or eliminate the need for cloture, period aren’t gone from our political system; we will definitely see them again. We will most definitely see them by Senate Republicans (if they’re in the Senate Minority) when the next Democratic President tries to nominate anyone with a hint of liberal in them


Ken,
You speak like someone who has absolutely no interest in listening to the other side, but demands equal time in an attempt to spew your assertions that have half-truths scattered around them with people who are actually having a meaningful and honest discussion. You cannot just blame Democrats for brining about this filibustering issue. It’s true that Democrats have been employing this legitimate senatorial procedure, but it is the President’s fault for nominating justices so objectionable and controversial to his opponents’ party so that they would be forced to use this procedure in order to stick up for their ideals and their constituents. But wait, I’m sorry, you would never admit that any of this is true because you’re always right and anyone who disagrees with you is wrong. You have no sense of perspective, don’t put yourself in others’ shoes when thinking about things, and you apparently have no idea how politics works.

The Minority Party has EVERY right to participate in the legislative process within the Senate rules and within legality. How dare you presume to claim that a Minority Party has no right to do so. It is their responsibility to their constituents to stick up for their ideals and the reasons that they were elected back home. If the President’s nominees didn’t need to be approved by the Senate, then that would be in the Constitution and not the confirmation / rejection process that is actually in there.

You’re very lucky that intelligent people listen to all sides of an issue, and to all arguments for each given side. If this wasn’t the case you’d soon find out that no one was listening to you. You need to see the political situation for what it is and become a realist (which you can still do while keeping your conservative political feelings, these aren’t mutually exclusive) or you can continue to be a political spin and flat out lie proponent on these boards. If you continue being the latter, have no fear, I’ll be there to give your statements a dose of reality.

[KenWittlief]

no appointed judge (or any other appointed official) has ever been prevented from receiving an up/down vote, once they cleared the senate committes, since our nation was formed.

Not one.

Until the democrats started using fillabusters against appointments in GWBs last term.

Are you saying these appointed judges are so unqualified, or so off the wall that 230 years of precident had to be thrown out the window?

If that is your position, then please tell us what is wrong with each of these appointed judges, who have been discriminated against with fillibusters in the senate? Please dont come back and say they are conservative extreemist, but show specifically what is wrong with their individual professional records.

There is only one issue behind all this. Row vs Wade. The democrats are scared to death GWB will appoint conservative judges and the decision will be reversed. That is absurd.

These lower court appointees were nothing but pawns in this political posturing leading up to GWB's first supreme court appointment, but they are REAL people - they do not have records that justify the way they have been stalled in the senate, some for almost 4 years now!

Ken,
You speak like someone who has absolutely no interest in listening to the other side, but demands equal time in an attempt to spew your assertions that have half-truths scattered around them with people who are actually having a meaningful and honest discussion....

^^^this is why politics and religion are practically banned on CD. I talk about politics in ONE THREAD and suddenly Im

a political spin and flat out lie proponent on these boards...

?!?!?

[Bill Gold]

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

no appointed judge (or any other appointed official) has ever been prevented from receiving an up/down vote, once they cleared the senate committes, since our nation was formed.

Not one.

Until the democrats started using fillabusters against appointments in GWBs last term.

Are you saying these appointed judges are so unqualified, or so off the wall that 230 years of precident had to be thrown out the window?

If that is your position, then please tell us what is wrong with each of these appointed judges, who have been discriminated against with fillibusters in the senate? Please dont come back and say they are conservative extreemist, but show specifically what is wrong with their individual professional records.

There is only one issue behind all this. Row vs Wade. The democrats are scared to death GWB will appoint conservative judges and the decision will be reversed. That is absurd.

These lower court appointees were nothing but pawns in this political posturing leading up to GWB's first supreme court appointment, but they are REAL people - they do not have records that justify the way they have been stalled in the senate, some for almost 4 years now!


^^^this is why politics and religion are practically banned on CD. I talk about politics in ONE THREAD and suddenly Im

?!?!?

Precedent? That’s what your argument is about? Precedent? “Precedent” has the kind of sway you suggest in law, after there have been rulings interpreting law. That’s the only time that precedent actually means something concrete. Precedent hasn’t meant anything concrete or binding in politics (domestic or international) for those same 230 years. This is really just a coincidence that it has taken this long to come about. If you really cared about precedents, then you’d also care about the precedent that even minorities deserve rights, which has been around since before the time of Thomas Jefferson, but obviously some people don't care about trampling on those.

As for the judges I would back any elected Senator’s right to either vote in favor of rejection or filibuster (given the opposing side doesn’t have enough votes to enact cloture), as is their constitutional right and obligation to their constituents. If I were in their position and had a large percentage of constituents who wanted me to block a nomination then I would do so to the best of my ability. In a republic officials are elected to act on the peoples’ behalf.

Why is the burden of “proof” on me? Why don’t you tell me why these people are qualified, and should be accepted by all sides? But I’m not a jerk and actually a nice guy and I don’t want to put you on the spot and make you research every one of those 7 peoples’ life stories.

These 7 nominees aren’t being appointed to some court like The Peoples’ Court; these are Circuit Court of Appeals courts, one step below the Supreme Court. It’s ridiculous to claim that Democrats are just playing with pawns. Rulings in Circuit Court cases have a widespread effect on the legal makeup of the country, and appointments to those courts are extremely important to every political party. Claiming otherwise just helps show how little you actually know and / or care about our government’s politics.

* Following Ken TOTALLY Off Subject *
I believe you’re thinking of the court case Roe vs. Wade. What’s so absurd about pro-choice peoples’ fear that it could be overturned with the unchecked influx of conservative judges to the judicial system? It seems like a legitimate fear to me. Do you happen to have some inside information that would put these fears to rest, or are you still wearing your “completely conservatively biased, and not wanting to listen to anything anyone else says” hat? The Republicans are supposedly the party of states’ rights and individual’s decisions, yet they don’t trust people to make their own family planning decisions or to even use contraception in some cases. Roe vs. Wade isn’t the only issue behind this, but you’re right that it’s one of them. Don’t be so narrow-minded and partisan as to claim that this procedure is only about one issue.

If I was going to follow your example and stoop to your level I’d say that you’re right, posts like yours which were so inflammatory and spotted with half-truths painted as if they were the words of God are the reason why Religion and Politics are such closely moderated topics on CD. It’s so hard for uninformed people to weed through posts like that to find what’s true and what isn’t. All you do is harm the community and continue the divisiveness that plagues this country by promoting such skewed views of reality / political spin talking points (either far right or far left).

[KenWittlief]

ok, you accused me of being a political hack for the republicans, now you accuse me of having a god-complex.

and I asked you to back up your statement that these appointees are so far out in right field that the democrat senators had 'no choice' but to block them with a technicality of senate rules

and you offered nothing to support your statements

there is no constitiutional provision that presidential appointments must be approved by a super-majority (60%) in the senate.

[Eugenia Gabrielov]

My apologies gentlemen, I stopped reading this thread after Daniel and Conor's posts, when you started arguing.

I respect your opinion, everyone respects your opinion, and we also can tell your political postitions because you've been ranting about them ceaselessly.

If you're going to discuss senate, discuss senate. If you're going to discuss justices, discuss them.

Ken, you are right. This is why politics and religion are almost banned on CD: because people argue. Enough said.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

ok, you accused me of being a political hack for the republicans, now you accuse me of having a god-complex.

and I asked you to back up your statement that these appointees are so far out in right field that the democrat senators had 'no choice' but to block them with a technicality of senate rules

and you offered nothing to support your statements

there is no constitiutional provision that presidential appointments must be approved by a super-majority (60%) in the senate.

No, there isn't, but there is a provision that says you cannot infringe on a member's right to speak, with less than that many votes.

And Ken, does it really matter what kind of description Bill or anyone else brings back on these judges?

You will:

A) Disregard any, or all of it, for being from a liberal slanted source, and thus not credible.
B) Contend that they're good people of high moral standards, and that we just don't like them because they're not from our party.

I'm normally tolerant of opposing view points, but only when they respect my own. It's clear that you have no respect for any view point other than your own, and won't even stop for a second to think about it, regardless of how much information we put out.

As such, I don't have any respect for your arguments.

P.S. We might take you a little more seriously if you put ten seconds of effort into your posts and used spell check and some punctuation. It makes you look like a 5th grader. I'm not impressed by someone who can't even spell the word they're talking about. It probably took you longer to make your one post full of punctuation marks than to just use them while writing.

Oh, and just to satisfy you, even though I know you'll completely disregard this information, here's your background:

Originally Posted by The Independent Judiciary

The New York Times reported, “Justice Owen is
considered by legal analysts in Texas to be among the most conservative members of the Texas Supreme
Court, which, in turn, is considered one of the nation’s most conservative supreme courts.” The Minneapolis
Star Tribune noted, “Even her conservative colleagues have commented on her habit of twisting the law to fit
her hyperconservative political views.” The San Antonio News Express found that “her record demonstrates a
results-oriented streak that belies supporters’ claims that she strictly follows the law.” The Houston
Chronicle concluded that she is “less interested in impartially interpreting the law than in pushing an agenda.”

Originally Posted by The Independent Judiciary

Justice Owen reliably votes to throw out jury verdicts favoring workers and consumers against corporate
interests and dismisses suits brought by workers for job-related injuries, discrimination and unfair employment
practices. She has cast many such votes in dissent, with even her conservative colleagues – including former
colleagues

Originally Posted by The Independent Judiciary

Prior to her original nomination, in each of the many cases that came before her involving Texas’ Parental
Notification Act, Justice Owen voted against allowing a minor to obtain an abortion without notifying her
parents, often ignoring the law’s explicit exceptions. In one case, she advocated requiring a minor to show an
awareness of the “philosophic, moral, social and religious arguments that can be brought to bear” before
obtaining judicial approval for an abortion without parental consent. The statute contains no such requirement.
• Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, when he was one of Justice Owen’s colleagues on the Texas Supreme
Court, criticized Justice Owen in another case for attempting to re-write the parental notification statute, calling
her dissent “an unconscionable act of judicial activism.”

Originally Posted by The Independent Judiciary

Justice Owen has taken campaign contributions from law firms and corporations, including Enron and
Halliburton, and then, without recusing herself, ruled in their favor when their cases came before her.
• After an investigation by a district attorney and a ruling by the Texas Ethics Commission, the Texas
Supreme Court revised its practice of allowing law clerks to accept money during their clerkships from their
future law firm employers, including those litigating before the court. Justice Owen nevertheless defended
the practice and dismissed the matter as a “political issue dressed up as a good government issue.”

I'm not even wasting more time finding something you'll pay no attention to anyways.

Also, this is not unprecedented. In 1968 republicans filibustered one of Lyndon Johnson's judicial nominees, causing it to be withdrawn.

[Jessica Boucher]

Ok, guys, after multiple requests this thread is going into the cooling area for just a while until we can make a decision on it. Please pm me with your suggestions on how to handle this thread in the future.