Championships location from 07 and onwards

[Amanda Morrison]

Originally Posted by M. Krass

Walt Disney World is undoubtedly more expensive than any other venue FIRST could probably find, save perhaps for New York City, Las Vegas or Los Angeles. As I've stated time and again, though, it is worth the cost. FIRST is not an organization that should be settling for or in search of the cheapest options, but demanding the best facilities the world has to offer.

Maddie, while I agree for the most part with what you've said, I feel every paragraph should have the clause 'to an extent' after it.

Fees just to participate in one regional have been raised, and many teams have felt the heat. Look at this year's controversial congratulatory NASA Grant thread - instead of 'yay, the teams who needed money got it' it turned into a vicious, rumor-driven thread of 'why did someone else get money, when xxx team really needs it?'. There are teams who come into existence and simply can't last for more than a year or two. While it's true that FIRST is continually growing at a rather rapid rate, many of us have agreed that maintenance of current teams is just as key as new growth.

Of course there are teams who do have the money, and would love to see the event return to Disney. If it went back, and there was a significant price increase, how many teams would really feel the pressure? Why shouldn't FIRST be looking for the cheapest facilities? Aren't we, as customers, entitled to getting our money's worth? I really like Disney. I haven't been back since 2002. But I really like being able to afford going to the championships every year, and not having an arm and a leg ripped off just to pay for my hotel room. Robotics aside, Disney is not a cheap place as it is. How many of this year's Championship teams could afford Atlanta, but not Disney?

I don't think it's FIRST responsibility to find a venue with all the bells and whistles that it could possibly have. It is, however, FIRST's responsibility to create a fun championship event, and do everything possible to make it worth the money we pay to them for these events. I did not attend Houston, but I have been to Atlanta the past two years, and I can say that FIRST made it well worth the money to attend (or else, why would I go?). Does it have to be Disney to be a great event? No. It would be fun, but it's not imperative we move it back there.

To have a great robotics event, Disney would need FIRST. But FIRST doens't need Disney.

[Madison]

Amanda -- I largely agree. I was speaking, in that last paragraph, in a most general sense and didn't intend any implication of what FIRST should currently be doing to host the event.

Rather, I'm frustrated by the world's reluctance to bend over backwards for FIRST. We shouldn't be scraping up spare change to get to a venue, we should be apologizing to New York City and tell them we'll be competing in Paris in 2012.

[Amanda Morrison]

Originally Posted by M. Krass

Rather, I'm frustrated by the world's reluctance to bend over backwards for FIRST.

With that, I don't think I (or anyone else that is fully hooked by this program) could agree more.

[Wayne C.]

Another 2 cents-

1. any place FIRST hosts the Championship should be warm and not at the mercy of late season blizzards and other such events
2. any place FIRST hosts the Championship needs a large number of hotels and resources for tourists or conventioneers
3. any place FIRST hosts should be moderately contained so the chaperones of the thousands of kids can keep track of them
4. any place FIRST hosts should have alternative activities for the after hours to keep the kids busy

In my mind this eliminates any place north of the Mason Dixon Line.

Having been to all of the venues that FIRST has held Championships the best by far has been Epcot. The others are good but not so good to be competitive in my mind. I like Atlanta but the after hours were quite lacking.

In 2002 Epcot hosted about 350 teams. To my knowledge the FRC event hasn't greatly surpassed that . Cost for the teams has never seemed to be a limiting factor from the FIRST perspective. And FIRST itself seems to be limiting the overall event to the 4 field maximum by their own policy anyway.

My vote is for Epcot. There has been nothing to surpass it since. (and most of the kids writing in this forum haven't experienced it)

WC

[tckma]

Originally Posted by Amanda Morrison

Why shouldn't FIRST be looking for the cheapest facilities? Aren't we, as customers, entitled to getting our money's worth? I really like Disney. I haven't been back since 2002. But I really like being able to afford going to the championships every year, and not having an arm and a leg ripped off just to pay for my hotel room. Robotics aside, Disney is not a cheap place as it is. How many of this year's Championship teams could afford Atlanta, but not Disney?

I don't think it's FIRST responsibility to find a venue with all the bells and whistles that it could possibly have. It is, however, FIRST's responsibility to create a fun championship event, and do everything possible to make it worth the money we pay to them for these events. I did not attend Houston, but I have been to Atlanta the past two years, and I can say that FIRST made it well worth the money to attend (or else, why would I go?). Does it have to be Disney to be a great event? No. It would be fun, but it's not imperative we move it back there.

I'm going to throw in my $3.17 (that's 2 cents adjusted for inflation with the result in 1982 dollars):

I did not attend the '03 Houston Championships, but I was in Atlanta in '04 and '05, as well as in EPCOT in '02. Both EPCOT and the Georgia Dome have their ups and downs as far as venues for Championships. And I had a great time at both venues.

While I agree that FIRST should be seeking a low-cost city in order to keep the competition affordable for teams, you're going to get more in terms of FIRST's growth and popularity if you hold it in a popular, high-cost city. Lots of people go to Disney on vacation, but let's face facts here -- who goes to Atlanta, unless it's for business or to see family in the area? Okay, the Olympics were there in 1996, but far more people have heard of the Olympics than have heard of FIRST.

Imagine this: you've never heard of FIRST, and you're on vacation with your family at Disney. The day your family decides to go to EPCOT, you see thousands of kids your age in colorful shirts plastered with buttons running around the park. You find out what's going on, check out some of the competition. You're so impressed with and excited by what you see that you say, "I want to do this!" When you get home, you tell all your friends, and try to start a FIRST team at your school. Or you're a teacher on vacation and you see the same thing.

Now, can you see someone going to Atlanta, and just happening to take a tour of the Georgia Dome that day? It's likely, but not nearly as likely as it would be at a more popular vacation spot.

Don't get me wrong. I'm all for affordable venues. But are we more likely to get the message of FIRST out if we have our Championship Event in a place like New York City or Chicago or Los Angeles, or a place like Indianapolis, Kansas City, or Baltimore?

(Before you complain to me -- I've been to Indianapolis, and Baltimore, and I like them both. I'm just saying they're not popular leisure travel destinations.)

There's a tradeoff that must be addressed. Personally, I feel that teams should be able to afford to compete in the Championship Event if they so desire... the message of FIRST can be spread by us FIRSTies telling all our friends and family about how addictive and fun this is. But most people do not know any FIRSTies. So how do we address this? I'm not entirely sure. What are your thoughts?

As a FIRST addict, I certainly agree that we should be apologizing to New York City and telling them we're going to have our Championship Event in Paris in 2012. As a realist, I know that this isn't going to be possible until FIRST becomes more popular and achieves the sports-like status that Dean Kamen originally envisioned. That's going to take work.

-Tom

[santosh]

Originally Posted by tckma

Imagine this: you've never heard of FIRST, and you're on vacation with your family at Disney. The day your family decides to go to EPCOT, you see thousands of kids your age in colorful shirts plastered with buttons running around the park. You find out what's going on, check out some of the competition. You're so impressed with and excited by what you see that you say, "I want to do this!" When you get home, you tell all your friends, and try to start a FIRST team at your school. Or you're a teacher on vacation and you see the same thing.

Now, can you see someone going to Atlanta, and just happening to take a tour of the Georgia Dome that day? It's likely, but not nearly as likely as it would be at a more popular vacation spot.

Great point. But can Epcot handle the Venu size. I haven't ben in a while and dont really remember.

[KTorak]

To add to the previous post about the venue needs, i'd like to add "Major Airport". It's much cheaper to fly to Detroit, than Toledo for example becuase Detroit it 25 times larger than Toledo.

[Andy Baker]

Some random thoughts on this:

1. $$$$$
The cost of attending Championships at Disney World was high. However, from what I heard, the price was going to be increased dramatically in the 2003 season, hence the move to Houston.

2. Facility
Attending Championships at Disney World was fun and safe. Hotels were excellent and the entertainment was stellar. However, the competition facilities were both temporary and expensive. It was frustrating to not be able to see matches on the main stage and have little seating room on the auxilliary field. With regard to simply looking at the competition side of things, I prefer competing in a dome or stadium.

3. Fun
I miss Disney World. My kids and wife miss going there also. However, realizing that it would cost WAAAAAY more than our last 3 years of attending championships, I still prefer having the FIRST Championships not at WDW for FIRST teams.

4. Location
Having the Championships at a central location is important. This saves more money for more teams if they don't have to fly. Also, I disagree with Wayne's requirement that the Championship must be above the Mason/Dixon line. Weather in late April isn't much different in Detroit, Indy or Atlanta (this is a generalization, and just an opinion... someone may prove me wrong here). Florida would be hotter, but these 3 cities would be approximately the same temp, from what I can tell. If the date was Feb. or March, I would agree with Wayne. April is different.

5. Spectators
We were always amazed at the lack of spectators FIRST would bring in from the Disney parks when it was located there. WDW did a poor job of advertizing the event, and people did not take the time to leave the park and come into the tent city of FIRST. A few people did make this trip, but not as many as might be expected. Having the Championships at WDW did not add spectators (except people who were on FIRST teams to only go to WDW).

The Championships needs to be in a city where FIRST takes over for the weekend. There is a fine line between the city being too big where the FIRST Championships would not make an impact and a city being too small to not be able to host the Championships. Imo, FIRST did not take over Atlanta. Unless you talked to a FIRST team member, were in the convention center or Georgia Dome, you would not know that there was a robotics event in the dome. Yes, there was some media coverage (both on the local news and the local newspaper), but there could've been more attention to FIRST robots in Atlanta.

Indianapolis is the right size for the Championships, and we would "take over" downtown for the weekend. Signs would be up. Hotel and restaurant people would know about robots and FIRST.

It could be a dream:
Waitresses would be asking how you did during qualification matches. Policemen would be wanting to know if you used PID control for your arm motion. Cabbies would be looking over your top 20 picks after your Friday night strategy session. Hotel busboys will be telling you that although team 131 was 2-3 during today's qualification matches, they had bad luck and should be a top pick. The Gondola driver on Canal Walk will help you scrutinize your Chairman's presentation. The Indianapolis Indians will have "FIRST Robotics Day" at Victory Field, and the new WFA winner would throw out the first pitch. Payton Manning and Jermaine O'Neil would be working as field resetters on Einstein. Tony George would be checking robot tires for traction, asking what teams used.
It will be a great thing.

Andy B.

[Amanda Morrison]

Originally Posted by Wayne C.

1. any place FIRST hosts the Championship should be warm and not at the mercy of late season blizzards and other such events...In my mind this eliminates any place north of the Mason Dixon Line.

Perhaps I'm the only person who froze my tush off in Atlanta during the team party. Weather is weather. It changes. In late April in Georgia, it was around 50 degrees. In mid-March in Indiana, it was 75. The Midwest, as well as the Southeast, Northwest, and every other direction you can think of, unfortunately do not come equipped with built-in temperature control. It's nice when it's warm, but certainly not mandatory.

Originally Posted by tckma

Imagine this: you've never heard of FIRST, and you're on vacation with your family at Disney. The day your family decides to go to EPCOT, you see thousands of kids your age in colorful shirts plastered with buttons running around the park. You find out what's going on, check out some of the competition. You're so impressed with and excited by what you see that you say, "I want to do this!" When you get home, you tell all your friends, and try to start a FIRST team at your school. Or you're a teacher on vacation and you see the same thing. Don't get me wrong. I'm all for affordable venues. But are we more likely to get the message of FIRST out if we have our Championship Event in a place like New York City or Chicago or Los Angeles, or a place like Indianapolis, Kansas City, or Baltimore?

While I agree that the flashier, more populated location is going to lend to more publicity, I can tell you honestly that I wouldn't want to take a teamful of twenty kids and release them in NYC or LA. There's a huge difference between Disney, which may as well be its own city, chock full of security and employees, and New York City, which would envelop the FIRST competition as if it were a science fair. There are simply too many 'what-if's'. For the students, don't get me wrong - I am not doubting your mature, responsible ways. I'm simply insinuating that things happen, and as a volunteer (or if I were an engineer, or a teacher), I would not want the responsibility of taking someone else's children to a different state, into a large city, and trying to keep them under wraps, much less safe and secure.

Do I think this is a great idea in the long run, though? Yes... but I don't think FIRST is ready for it.

[tckma]

Originally Posted by santosh

Great point. But can Epcot handle the Venu size. I haven't ben in a while and dont really remember.

Well, EPCOT was a temporary facility built in the parking lot. They could probably make it as big as needed (so long as they could close down an entire lot). The only thing I really didn't care for about it was that they rotated fields (i.e. you weren't always on your division's home field), and one of the fields was outside in the heat.

I'm not so sure, actually.

[tckma]

Originally Posted by Andy Baker

5. Spectators
We were always amazed at the lack of spectators FIRST would bring in from the Disney parks when it was located there. WDW did a poor job of advertizing the event, and people did not take the time to leave the park and come into the tent city of FIRST. A few people did make this trip, but not as many as might be expected. Having the Championships at WDW did not add spectators (except people who were on FIRST teams to only go to WDW).

I didn't really think about it, but yes, having the event outside the actual park hurt our chances at getting outside spectators. I don't think they could have held it IN the park, though.

The Championships needs to be in a city where FIRST takes over for the weekend. There is a fine line between the city being too big where the FIRST Championships would not make an impact and a city being too small to not be able to host the Championships. Imo, FIRST did not take over Atlanta. Unless you talked to a FIRST team member, were in the convention center or Georgia Dome, you would not know that there was a robotics event in the dome. Yes, there was some media coverage (both on the local news and the local newspaper), but there could've been more attention to FIRST robots in Atlanta.

Hm, I think that would be neat, if we "took over a city" for the weekend. That's a good point. I don't think people outside the Georgia Dome or local hotel staffs even knew what was going on.

It could be a dream:
Waitresses would be asking how you did during qualification matches. Policemen would be wanting to know if you used PID control for your arm motion. Cabbies would be looking over your top 20 picks after your Friday night strategy session. Hotel busboys will be telling you that although team

I'd love that! But do you think a policeman (who doesn't have a FIRSTie son or daughter) would even know what PID control is? We can dream.

[tckma]

Originally Posted by Amanda Morrison

Perhaps I'm the only person who froze my tush off in Atlanta during the team party.

I, too, was cold. Having the competition in warmer climates helps, but it doesn't guarantee a warm sunny weekend, as we all saw in Atlanta this year -- it was cold, and rainy sometimes.

While I agree that the flashier, more populated location is going to lend to more publicity, I can tell you honestly that I wouldn't want to take a teamful of twenty kids and release them in NYC or LA. There's a huge difference between Disney, which may as well be its own city, chock full of security and employees, and New York City, which would envelop the FIRST competition as if it were a science fair. There are simply too many 'what-if's'.

Well, yes, there are security concerns, but I think they exist anywhere BUT Disney. Even in Atlanta, there were issues. For example, for some reason some students on my team coming off the MARTA train from the airport (and let me tell you, MARTA was, um, an "experience"), decided to follow some random local Atlantan to our hotel. Now, how did they know he wasn't leading us into some dark alley to beat us up and steal our money? (He did hold his hand out at the end...) I'm not saying that all high school kids are like this, in fact, the majority, I've found, posess basic street smarts -- teachers and parents and mentors have responsibilities to make sure the students don't get into trouble -- and that exists ANYWHERE. It's going to be just as crummy if someone beats you up and steals your wallet in Atlanta or in NYC. And I certainly wouldn't want, as a mentor, to have to answer to an upset parent whose son or daughter was kidnapped while under my watch. That's called responsibility -- as a team chaperone, it is a requirement, and one I have never taken lightly.

I agree that NYC would probably "envelop" the competiton, but only because there are more people there. That's the whole point. Perhaps a smaller percentage of the population would hear about it, but a greater number of people would hear about it.

I also agree that larger cities have higher crime rates... but my point, I guess is that crime unfortunately, exists anywhere you go.

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by Andy Baker

4. Location
Having the Championships at a central location is important. This saves more money for more teams if they don't have to fly. Also, I disagree with Wayne's requirement that the Championship must be above the Mason/Dixon line. Weather in late April isn't much different in Detroit, Indy or Atlanta (this is a generalization, and just an opinion... someone may prove me wrong here). Florida would be hotter, but these 3 cities would be approximately the same temp, from what I can tell. If the date was Feb. or March, I would agree with Wayne. April is different.

Weather Data for April (From Weather.Com)
Atlanta
- Average High: 73 F
- Average Low: 50 F
- Average Precipitation: 3.62 in

Detroit
- Average High: 59 F
- Average Low: 39 F
- Average Precipitation: N/A

Indianapolis
- Average High: 63 F
- Average Low: 41 F
- Average Precipitation: 3.61 in

Orlando
- Average High: 83 F
- Average Low: 60 F
- Average Precipitation: 2.42 in

[santosh]

I see no security issues when you are travelling with a minimum of like 10 other people. It isn't even an issue when you are alone. Maybe at night but otherwise it isnt at all. Atleast I havn't had any experiences. I just don't see safety as too much of an issue. Also, the weather in Georgia like anyone can tell you is just plain wierd. 1 day you can freeze to death, and then the next day, you can b burnt to a crisp. It is just weird. Nothing you can do about it.
Quick fact.
Atlanta lost the 2007 Superbowl bid partly because of the weather.

[Nitroxextreme]

FIRST should have bids as to which arena will give them the best deal. FIRST will bring any arena into the international eye just with one championship event.