Go to Post "I need the adjustable hammer" "You mean that wren-" "No, it's a hammer" - Karibou [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > Other > Math and Science
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Reply
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 15-07-2005, 00:44
KenWittlief KenWittlief is offline
.
no team
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 4,213
KenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond repute
are we alone in the universe?

I wasnt sure if I should post this here or in the Nasa folder. I think it deals more with science in general so I posted it here.

This is a subject I have been thinking about for a couple years. For several decades now scientists and the general public have assumed there must be hundreds or even thousands of advanced civilizations in our galaxy

and many more planets with simpler life forms

but the thinking is starting to swing the other way, for many reasons.

I put all my thoughts on a web-page that Im hosting, rather than paste it all here ill post the link instead.

I think this is something that will eventaully change humanitys way of thinking - about ourselves and our purpose in the biggest sense.

http://www.us-spark.com

-Ken
Reply With Quote
  #2   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 15-07-2005, 01:07
sanddrag sanddrag is offline
On to my 16th year in FRC
FRC #0696 (Circuit Breakers)
Team Role: Teacher
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: Glendale, CA
Posts: 8,507
sanddrag has a reputation beyond reputesanddrag has a reputation beyond reputesanddrag has a reputation beyond reputesanddrag has a reputation beyond reputesanddrag has a reputation beyond reputesanddrag has a reputation beyond reputesanddrag has a reputation beyond reputesanddrag has a reputation beyond reputesanddrag has a reputation beyond reputesanddrag has a reputation beyond reputesanddrag has a reputation beyond repute
Re: are we alone in the universe?

Very interesting read. Thanks.

I have a question about one thing. You say that if life on earth dies (and assuming it is the only life in the universe) then the universe will "burn out" before the "blender" can recombine all the atoms into DNA again, therfore there will be no more life.

My question is which is longer, the time between the "big bang" and now or the time between now and the "heat death" or burn out?

Because if the time between now and the "heat death" burnout is more than the time between the "big bang" and now, then how did all the atoms have enough time to correctly combine to make life in the first place if they wouldn't have time to reorganize before the burnout?

Also, while you probably are correct in saying there wouldn't be enough time to try all the combinations of atoms, it does only take once to get it right. It wouldn't necessarily be the last possible combination that it works out right. You might get it on the firs try. Just like, to absolutely win the lotto it would cost more to buy all the tickets than what you would win, but all it takes to win is that one "lucky" ticket which can come at any time without having to buy all the tickets.

Does anyone have a clue what I just said? I probably confused the heck out of everyone. Please someone tell me you understand.
__________________
Teacher/Engineer/Machinist - Team 696 Circuit Breakers, 2011 - Present
Mentor/Engineer/Machinist, Team 968 RAWC, 2007-2010
Technical Mentor, Team 696 Circuit Breakers, 2005-2007
Student Mechanical Leader and Driver, Team 696 Circuit Breakers, 2002-2004
Reply With Quote
  #3   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 15-07-2005, 02:36
Barry Bonzack's Avatar
Barry Bonzack Barry Bonzack is offline
Impossible to rain on my parade.
FRC #1902 (Exploding Bacon)
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 1,776
Barry Bonzack has a reputation beyond reputeBarry Bonzack has a reputation beyond reputeBarry Bonzack has a reputation beyond reputeBarry Bonzack has a reputation beyond reputeBarry Bonzack has a reputation beyond reputeBarry Bonzack has a reputation beyond reputeBarry Bonzack has a reputation beyond reputeBarry Bonzack has a reputation beyond reputeBarry Bonzack has a reputation beyond reputeBarry Bonzack has a reputation beyond reputeBarry Bonzack has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Barry Bonzack
Re: are we alone in the universe?

If I may borrow a line from the movie Contact: if we are the only life in the universe, its an awful waste of space.

And a line from Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy: "Space," it says, "is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly hugely mindboggingly big it is. I mean you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space. Listen ..."

When you start playing with infinities, I would believe that normal physics and equations go out the window. This is why it is hard to figure out exact science behind black holes.

(I spend too much time watching Mega Science on the Science Channel while at my dad's house)

I agree with most points made in this article, especially backing everything by the mathematical formulas. However I believe things start getting shaky when questioning how the 1E350 chance of life happening on Earth originally got here. Without turning this into a religious thread doomed to be locked, I also disagree with the thought it was intentionally sent here from another civilization. There could have been many other ways that the building blocks could have found residence here on this planet, and there are many other theories on this.

I agree humanity ultimately must attempt to colonize elsewhere. However, I don't think doing it for the sake of doing it will be a popular opinion. In order to spend the energy on trying to journey to another galaxy, there would have to be a strong reason that our own is in danger (or we could make some serious money doing so).

Quote:
We know the universe is expanding and will never collapse back on itself.
Heat death is one theory, another is that the universe will indeed collapse back on itself and there will eventually be another big bang. The universe is still currently expanding. I do not understand this whole process really myself, its a bit too mindbogglying for my brain to comprehend how something that is infinitely large is still expanding.

I applaud this article and thinking, and that you have posted it open to criticism. It was an extremely interesting read and had some ideas I hadn't thought of before.
__________________


Chair of Florida FIRST Alumni
Orlando Regional Planning Committee
FIRST Tech Challenge Florida Leadership Team

Program Planner on the Orion Spacecraft at the Kennedy Space Center

Twitter: @FL_FIRST_Alumni













Events I'm Emceeing/Game Announcing:
1/10/2015 FTC Jacksonville League Championship
1/11/2015 FTC Central FL Tesla League Championship
1/17/2015 FTC South Florida League Championship
1/24/2015 FTC Tampa/St. Pete League Championship
2/7/2015 FLL Orlando Regional
2/14/2015 FTC State Championship
2/26-2/28/15 FRC South Florida Regional
3/8/2015 FLL State Championship
3/12-3/14/15 FRC Orlando Regional
4/22-4/25/15 FIRST World Championship Event - FTC Franklin Field
Reply With Quote
  #4   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 15-07-2005, 07:00
Ryan M. Ryan M. is offline
Programming User
FRC #1317 (Digital Fusion)
Team Role: Programmer
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,508
Ryan M. has much to be proud ofRyan M. has much to be proud ofRyan M. has much to be proud ofRyan M. has much to be proud ofRyan M. has much to be proud ofRyan M. has much to be proud ofRyan M. has much to be proud ofRyan M. has much to be proud ofRyan M. has much to be proud of
Re: are we alone in the universe?

Interesting read, Ken.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanddrag
I have a question about one thing. You say that if life on earth dies (and assuming it is the only life in the universe) ... the first place if they wouldn't have time to reorganize before the burnout?
Eh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanddrag
... Just like, to absolutely win the lotto it would cost more to buy all the tickets than what you would win, but all it takes to win is that one "lucky" ticket which can come at any time without having to buy all the tickets.
Of course, there's a whole heck of a lot more chances with the lotto. (Or is there... goes off to let someone else do the math. )
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #5   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 15-07-2005, 09:11
Michael Desch Michael Desch is offline
Physicist
#0053 (Team Illusion)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Greenbelt, MD
Posts: 3
Michael Desch is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: are we alone in the universe?

You are correct, the ingrained belief (almost a religion) that the galaxy is somehow filled with advanced civilations just waiting to make contact with us is slowly waning, despite the best efforts of the Sagan-Drake proponents. Fermi's paradox (The galaxy should have been completely colonized by now and Earth should have been visited many times. So, where are they?) has never been adequately answered by the 'we are not alone crowd'. More recent info makes Fermi look even smarter because of the solar type stars in the Galaxy, our Sun is one of the youngest by far. The implication is that civilizations as we know it, evolving on solar-type stars, should on average be way ahead of us technologically. So -- where are they?
Reply With Quote
  #6   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 15-07-2005, 10:07
KenWittlief KenWittlief is offline
.
no team
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 4,213
KenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond repute
Re: are we alone in the universe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanddrag
Very interesting read. Thanks.

I have a question about one thing. You say that if life on earth dies (and assuming it is the only life in the universe) then the universe will "burn out" before the "blender" can recombine all the atoms into DNA again, therfore there will be no more life.

My question is which is longer, the time between the "big bang" and now or the time between now and the "heat death" or burn out?

Because if the time between now and the "heat death" burnout is more than the time between the "big bang" and now, then how did all the atoms have enough time to correctly combine to make life in the first place if they wouldn't have time to reorganize before the burnout?

Also, while you probably are correct in saying there wouldn't be enough time to try all the combinations of atoms, it does only take once to get it right. It wouldn't necessarily be the last possible combination that it works out right. You might get it on the firs try. Just like, to absolutely win the lotto it would cost more to buy all the tickets than what you would win, but all it takes to win is that one "lucky" ticket which can come at any time without having to buy all the tickets.
I will try to hit all the questions and points raised so far in this thread in this one reply.

Probability tells us how likely something is to occur. While its true that is is possible to win the lottery the first time you play, and then to win it again the second time you play, its not very likely

and the question is, what course does humanity take, based on the scientific evidence, based on what we know. I could have taken all my college tuition money and spent it on lottery tickets instead of becoming an engineer, and I might have made a million dollars that way, but I would have no control over that outcome. By getting my BSEE degree, and working as an engineer for the last 21 years, I have earned $1.2M dollars so far. I have played the lottery from time to time over those 20 years, and I think maybe Ive won $40 total

probability tells us what we should do to have the best chance of success.

If something has 1E3 possible combinations then you have to have 1000 random trials on average to get the desired outcome to happen once. If you have 100,000 trials, then it really does average out that you will see your desired outcome around 100 times. If not, then the thing you are predicting is not really random.

So, how long till heat death? on average we would have to get another 1E250 seconds before we can reasonably expect to see life happen again spontainiously, and that is assuming every single atom in the universe is recombining once every second in a place where life COULD exist if it happened to assemble by chance. In my equation I used every single atom in the universe, including the atoms that are in the stars, and the cores of all planets, and drifting through space. Obviously if any of those atoms assembled into a single cell lifeform by random chance, it could not survive or reproduce.

On the comments about the universe being infinite, its not. Everything we are able to observe says the entire universe began at one point, and spread out from there, around 16 billion years ago. If something started from a single point, with a fixed amount of mass and energy, then it cannot 'become infinite' no matter how long you wait. If there are other 'universes' (Im mangling the word here) that are so far away that we cant detect them, then for all practical purposes they dont exist, because we will never have a means of interacting with them.

The universe is expanding at a rate that will keep it from collasping back in on itself. This has been confirmed by recent observations. In fact, the universe is expanding at an accelerating rate, something we are at a total loss to explain, without involking things like anti-gravity particles (something we have never observed).

Someone has calculated that one civilization able to travel from star to star at sublight speeds would be able to expand out and colonize our entire galaxy, and it would only take them 2 million years. As another has pointed out in this thread, since the universe is 16 billion years ago, 2 million years is a very small fraction. If anyone is out there, they should have colonized the entire galaxy by now, they should have been here many times over.

bottom line is, as far as we are able to observe, and from what we know about the size of the universe and the complexity required for life to establish itself: we are (most likely) entirely alone.

Quote:
I agree humanity ultimately must attempt to colonize elsewhere. However, I don't think doing it for the sake of doing it will be a popular opinion. In order to spend the energy on trying to journey to another galaxy, there would have to be a strong reason that our own is in danger (or we could make some serious money doing so).
I agree, this understanding calls for a new way of thinking for our species - to see ourselves not as individuals, not even as a species, but as the only lifeform in existance that has the ability to carry life from one star system to another. We dont have to jump from galaxy to galaxy. Jumping from star to star will do (for the next few billion years at least).

I cant see our culture launching any nationalized efforts towards this goal in my lifetime, but I can see our species stepping up to the plate in a hundred years or so, and begin an organized effort.

In the meantime, I think the most we can hope for is individuals seeing the reality of this, and slowly it will begin to change the way we see ourselves, our relationship with with the other lifeforms on this planet, and our purpose in the universe.

Last edited by KenWittlief : 15-07-2005 at 13:16.
Reply With Quote
  #7   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 15-07-2005, 10:19
mechanicalbrain's Avatar
mechanicalbrain mechanicalbrain is offline
The red haired Dremel gnome!
FRC #0623 (Ohm robotics)
Team Role: Electrical
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,221
mechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to mechanicalbrain Send a message via Yahoo to mechanicalbrain
Re: are we alone in the universe?

i pose it as this. the chance for life as we know it to exist can be broken down like this (note these are estimates off the top of my head that I'm using to prove a point). the chances of a planet being in the right proximity and stable orbit of a star, made of a solid composition, able to support a stable atmosphere, and posses the necessary resources to sustain any life is like 1 to 1,000,000,000 (probably much more) and that does not even guaranty the existence of life. as i understand what the current popular theory it was a set of pure accidents in chemical composition of materials on earth as well as atmospheric shifts. also taking into account that any number of things (meteors, collapsing stars, change in orbit, reactions in the atmosphere, if ANYTHING and i mean ANYTHING becomes unstable) can end all life that cannot immediately adapt to it. and yet despite all these odds i pose to you that the universe as i come to understand it is infinite (or at least REALLY (i feel that it truly deserves a capitol really) big and im talking of space not matter and we also assume theres only one big bang) and so there are probably an uncountable number of worlds with life. and that is just our definition of what life is. do i think life exist? undoubtedly. do i ever think we will find it? almost certainly not. even if we could travel the distances of space instantly we might never come across life or find it and not recognize it for what it is. ooh deep stuff.
__________________
"Oh my God! There's an axe in my head."
623's 2006 home page
random mechanicalbrain slogans


Last edited by mechanicalbrain : 15-07-2005 at 10:22.
Reply With Quote
  #8   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 15-07-2005, 12:12
KenWittlief KenWittlief is offline
.
no team
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 4,213
KenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond repute
Re: are we alone in the universe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mechanicalbrain
...and yet despite all these odds i pose to you that the universe as i come to understand it is infinite (or at least REALLY (i feel that it truly deserves a capitol really) big and im talking of space not matter and we also assume theres only one big bang) and so there are probably an uncountable number of worlds with life.
I agree with your conclusion that we will never find life anywhere

but I do want to comment, in science and engineering infinity is not a real number. you will never end up with an equation or measure a parameter or characteristic in the real world where one of the numbers is infinity.

there are websites that explain how scientists calculated the number of atoms in the universe. the number is big, but its not infinity.

just as you can sit on a beach and count the grains of sand in a cubic centimeter of the waterline, and then calculate how many grains of sand there are on that whole beach, it is also possible to calculate how many atoms there are in the universe.

and space itself is not infinite. I know this sounds like nonsense, but empty space and time itself did not exists before the big bang, and empty space did not immediately spring into existance everywhere at the big bang. Empty space and time do not exist outside the boundary of the expanding universe.

Its almost impossible to comprehend that, but this is what modern physics tells us.
Reply With Quote
  #9   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 15-07-2005, 12:37
mechanicalbrain's Avatar
mechanicalbrain mechanicalbrain is offline
The red haired Dremel gnome!
FRC #0623 (Ohm robotics)
Team Role: Electrical
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,221
mechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to mechanicalbrain Send a message via Yahoo to mechanicalbrain
Re: are we alone in the universe?

first of all that assumes that mathmatics can be applied to the universe, second how do we know that their arent multiple expanding universes, and third after reading a little on quantum theory as i understand it there is no such thing as space or time on the quantum level.
__________________
"Oh my God! There's an axe in my head."
623's 2006 home page
random mechanicalbrain slogans

Reply With Quote
  #10   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 15-07-2005, 12:39
sanddrag sanddrag is offline
On to my 16th year in FRC
FRC #0696 (Circuit Breakers)
Team Role: Teacher
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: Glendale, CA
Posts: 8,507
sanddrag has a reputation beyond reputesanddrag has a reputation beyond reputesanddrag has a reputation beyond reputesanddrag has a reputation beyond reputesanddrag has a reputation beyond reputesanddrag has a reputation beyond reputesanddrag has a reputation beyond reputesanddrag has a reputation beyond reputesanddrag has a reputation beyond reputesanddrag has a reputation beyond reputesanddrag has a reputation beyond repute
Re: are we alone in the universe?

Quote:
In fact, the universe is expanding at an accelerating rate, something we are at a total loss to explain, without involking things like anti-gravity particles (something we have never observed).
Let's think about this. How in the world (haha, maybe "world" is not the right word) , er, what could possibly be making the universe expand at an accelerating rate. To have acceleration you must have force (as far as we know). Gravitational force is really the only thing big enough to move plantes and the such right? But masses have attracting gravitational force which would infer that the universe should be negatively accelerating and eventually reverse and get smaller and ultimately collapse back on itself. So what could possibly be providing the force allowing it to expand (and at an accelerated rate)? Is there a group of even larger masses beyond the universe whose gravity is pulling our universe apart? Perhaps some sort of increidbly large electromagnetic force of some sort?

Also, we talk about how the universe started about 16 billion years ago. It is so funny to talk about things like the universe (which is far as we know is EVERYTHING that exists) in terms of time units from Earth. I wish scientists would develop some sort of univeral time unit for all throughout space, but I have no idea how that would work. Especially when you get into time warpage and stuff like that.

Last, does anyone believe that sending life to other planets could be potentially damaging to our own in the long long run? I don't think you'd want to start life on nearby planets. I'm thinking War of the Worlds but like for reals. What if in 5 billion years they come to attack us (given that we are still here) and destroy us? I think if we plant life in the universe then we should send it really far away. Also, I think we should be able to monitor it, but not leave and evidence as to where it came from. I'm thinking that one day if two intelligent life forms from different planets interacted, it would have very violent results.

For starting life elsewhere, I had once heard something about how the ice caps on Mars could be melted to produce C02 which would warm the planet to make it much more suitable for life. They said something if the technology was available to do it on that large of a scale, it would only take about 20 years to complete. I forget exactly how they thought it could be done though.
__________________
Teacher/Engineer/Machinist - Team 696 Circuit Breakers, 2011 - Present
Mentor/Engineer/Machinist, Team 968 RAWC, 2007-2010
Technical Mentor, Team 696 Circuit Breakers, 2005-2007
Student Mechanical Leader and Driver, Team 696 Circuit Breakers, 2002-2004

Last edited by sanddrag : 15-07-2005 at 13:17.
Reply With Quote
  #11   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 15-07-2005, 12:50
mechanicalbrain's Avatar
mechanicalbrain mechanicalbrain is offline
The red haired Dremel gnome!
FRC #0623 (Ohm robotics)
Team Role: Electrical
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,221
mechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to mechanicalbrain Send a message via Yahoo to mechanicalbrain
Re: are we alone in the universe?

there is a really good book that talks about the whole ideology of intergalactic war and expansion and it has a lot of firmly rooted ideas its called Jentry's Envy
__________________
"Oh my God! There's an axe in my head."
623's 2006 home page
random mechanicalbrain slogans

Reply With Quote
  #12   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 15-07-2005, 12:57
KenWittlief KenWittlief is offline
.
no team
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 4,213
KenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond repute
Re: are we alone in the universe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mechanicalbrain
second how do we know that their arent multiple expanding universes...
I know this is semantics, but the word 'universe' by definition means 'everything there is'

there could be more galaxies and things out there that we cant see, but everything that we can see (and we can see unbeliveably far) has all the characteristics of expanding out from one original big bang
Reply With Quote
  #13   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 15-07-2005, 13:11
KenWittlief KenWittlief is offline
.
no team
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 4,213
KenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond repute
Re: are we alone in the universe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanddrag
Let's think about this. How in the world (haha, maybe "world is not the right word") , er, what could possibly be making the universe expand at an accelerating rate. To have acceleration you must have force (as far as we know). Gravitational force is really the only thing big enough to move plantes and the such right? But masses have attracting gravitational force which would infer that the universe should be negatively accelerating and eventually reverse and get smaller and ultimately collapse back on itself. So what could possibly be providing the force allowing it to expand (and at an accelerated rate)? Is there a group of even larger masses beyond the universe whose gravity is pulling our universe apart? Perhaps some sort of increidbly large electromagnetic force of some sort?

Also, we talk about how the universe started about 16 billion years ago. It is so funny to talk about things like the universe (which is far as we know is EVERYTHING that exists) in terms of time units from Earth. I wish scientists would develop some sort of univeral time unit for all throughout space, but I have no idea how that would work. Especially when you get into time warpage and stuff like that.

Last, does anyone believe that sending life to other planets could be potentially damaging to our own in the long long run? I don't think you'd want to start life on nearby planets. I'm thinking War of the Worlds but like for reals. What if in 5 billion years they come to attack us (given that we are still here) and destroy us? I think if we plant life in the universe then we should send it really far away. Also, I think we should be able to monitor it, but not leave and evidence as to where it came from. I'm thinking that one day if two intelligent life forms from different planets interacted, it would have very violent results.

For starting life elsewhere, I had once heard something about how the ice caps on Mars could be melted to produce C02 which would warm the planet to make it much more suitable for life. They said something if the technology was available to do it on that large of a scale, it would only take about 20 years to complete. I forget exactly how they thought it could be done though.
we have already measured the rate of expansion, and the universe is expanding faster than (for lack of the exactly correct expression) the universal escape velocity. The matter is already expanding out faster than gravity can pull it all back together to make it collapse back in on itself

I dont want to delve into a discussion on how its possible that this expansion is accelerating - physicists dont have a good answer, and neither do I. It is an interesting subject, and theres lots of information out there.

Regarding the dangers of interstellar exploration and colonization, I had considered this as a possible reason why we might have come here from another star system, and decided to erase the tracks as it were.

If our species had a violent history on our previous planet, we might have decided to break the link between the colonies - to keep one from turning against the other

but I tend to think if we are able to pull together as a species to organize something as complex as interstellar travel and colonization, that we would also be able to learn to live with each other, here and everywhere else we travel.

And then there is always the chance that we will send a probe or starship to another system and discover it is already inhabited, that they dont appreciate the intrusion, and they are able to trace the trajectory of the vessel back to its origin and come after us. It is possible, but the whole point of my message is that, based on what science is telling us, its very unlikely that any lifeforms are out there at all.
Reply With Quote
  #14   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 15-07-2005, 13:26
sanddrag sanddrag is offline
On to my 16th year in FRC
FRC #0696 (Circuit Breakers)
Team Role: Teacher
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: Glendale, CA
Posts: 8,507
sanddrag has a reputation beyond reputesanddrag has a reputation beyond reputesanddrag has a reputation beyond reputesanddrag has a reputation beyond reputesanddrag has a reputation beyond reputesanddrag has a reputation beyond reputesanddrag has a reputation beyond reputesanddrag has a reputation beyond reputesanddrag has a reputation beyond reputesanddrag has a reputation beyond reputesanddrag has a reputation beyond repute
Re: are we alone in the universe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenWittlief
If our species had a violent history on our previous planet, we might have decided to break the link between the colonies - to keep one from turning against the other
Wait a minute. Homo sapiens didn't arrive here from another planet. They evolved here beginning with single celled organisms (or so we think). Or maybe I misunderstood you. Are you saying that perhaps homo sapiens perhaps evolved somewhere else and then that "somewhere else" started life in it's most basic forms here on Earth and then it evolved into us? How would we even know about a link to break with our "planters" if we think that we started here by evolving from single celled organisms? Also, it seems reasonable that humans did not learn about space and planets and whatnot until very recently in the history of our species.

EDIT: Also, I just wanted to comment that it seems there is a large amount of people thinking that if there is other intelligent life out there that is looks like us. Due to different conditions even such as different amounts of gravity, it could look totally different. People think intelligent life in the universe would be a lot like humans which probably most likely it would not be. It would be just like thinking everyone in the world speaks English, which most certainly isn't the case.

If intelligent life it found, it will probably be so mind boggling strange that we can't comprehend it.

Finally, I believe that possibly by the end of my lifetime scientists will be able to create life from non-living matter. It is simply a problem of making the most complex (metaphorical) photocopier ever.
__________________
Teacher/Engineer/Machinist - Team 696 Circuit Breakers, 2011 - Present
Mentor/Engineer/Machinist, Team 968 RAWC, 2007-2010
Technical Mentor, Team 696 Circuit Breakers, 2005-2007
Student Mechanical Leader and Driver, Team 696 Circuit Breakers, 2002-2004

Last edited by sanddrag : 15-07-2005 at 13:31.
Reply With Quote
  #15   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 15-07-2005, 13:47
mechanicalbrain's Avatar
mechanicalbrain mechanicalbrain is offline
The red haired Dremel gnome!
FRC #0623 (Ohm robotics)
Team Role: Electrical
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,221
mechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to mechanicalbrain Send a message via Yahoo to mechanicalbrain
Re: are we alone in the universe?

i think we were created by the mice! okay on a more serious note what happens if we DO come across life and either A) dont recognize it for what it is. or B) the lifeform is so alien from us that we have no point of reference. (yes i know catagory A automatically fits into catagory B)
__________________
"Oh my God! There's an axe in my head."
623's 2006 home page
random mechanicalbrain slogans

Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Atheists? TheShadow Chit-Chat 82 28-06-2005 10:23
Am I alone in the universe? Madison Chit-Chat 4 22-02-2004 20:34
R. Buckminster Fuller: THE HISTORY (and Mystery) OF THE UNIVERSE Ken Leung Math and Science 1 09-06-2003 01:41
The Universe is Large Chubtoad Chit-Chat 25 12-08-2002 15:15


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:20.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi