Go to Post When you score a Supercell on your own alliance it has a tendency to sway a match... - EricLeifermann [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > Other > Math and Science
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 25-07-2005, 17:57
Marc P. Marc P. is offline
I fix stuff.
AKA: βetamarc
no team
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Rookie Year: 1999
Location: Watertown, CT
Posts: 997
Marc P. has a reputation beyond reputeMarc P. has a reputation beyond reputeMarc P. has a reputation beyond reputeMarc P. has a reputation beyond reputeMarc P. has a reputation beyond reputeMarc P. has a reputation beyond reputeMarc P. has a reputation beyond reputeMarc P. has a reputation beyond reputeMarc P. has a reputation beyond reputeMarc P. has a reputation beyond reputeMarc P. has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Marc P.
Re: are we alone in the universe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenWittlief
I didnt come up with it myself.

It is based on the number of molecules in the most simple - single cell organisms
But life began from simple amino-acids, with nothing more than a mixture of hydrogen, water, methane, and ammonia, all of which are common materials, no doubt found throughout the universe. Amino-acids have been created in a lab under conditions simulating the environment of early Earth. From another site:

Further studies showed that some amino acids would have combined with hydrogen cyanide (HCN), which is a byproduct of volcanic activity. This combination would form purines and pyrinidines, which are used to make nucleic acids, which in turn create DNA.

So essentially, atoms wouldn't have to form complex cells initially, but rather, start with more simple organic compounds, and combine/evolve into more complex molecules from there. This seems much more likely, and as it's been proven in the lab, is far from impossible to happen in other solar systems.
Reply With Quote
  #2   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 25-07-2005, 20:09
sciguy125 sciguy125 is offline
Electrical Engineer
AKA: Phil Baltar
FRC #1351
Team Role: College Student
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 519
sciguy125 has a reputation beyond reputesciguy125 has a reputation beyond reputesciguy125 has a reputation beyond reputesciguy125 has a reputation beyond reputesciguy125 has a reputation beyond reputesciguy125 has a reputation beyond reputesciguy125 has a reputation beyond reputesciguy125 has a reputation beyond reputesciguy125 has a reputation beyond reputesciguy125 has a reputation beyond reputesciguy125 has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to sciguy125 Send a message via MSN to sciguy125 Send a message via Yahoo to sciguy125
Re: are we alone in the universe?

This is targeted more toward the discussion in general than the issue at hand.

We all live in a delusional state. Actually, I haven't quite decided whether it's a delusion or an illusion. We see the world however we want to see it. If I want to believe that Microsoft is an evil corporate conglomerate, I’ll be able to find evidence to support it and I’ll be able to find a way to counter any evidence against my belief. (Do some research on dihydrogen monoxide if you’ve never heard of it before) We have a limited view of the world around us. We use what we can see to construct our delusion of the world. Let’s consider the following situation:

Ed walks into the other room. You hear the chop saw spin up, then Ed screams. As someone opens the door, you see red splatters all over the walls.

What happened? Well, it would be easy to assume that Ed cut his hand off. However, he didn’t. He wanted to get the ketchup out of the bottle, but didn’t realize that it would splatter all over the place when he cut into it. You didn’t have enough information to find the correct solution, but you did have enough to make a very good educated guess. If you never saw Ed again and never found out about the ketchup, you would have gone on believing that he’s missing a hand.

Anything you see can be interpreted in many different ways. With something on a large scale, like whether life exists anywhere other than earth, the number possible interpretations increases. Until we’ve checked every planet in the universe (or just find life elsewhere) this discussion will continue forever.
__________________

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12
GE/S/P a-- e y-- r-- s:++ d+ h! X+++
t++ C+ P+ L++ E W++ w M-- V? PS+ PE+
5- R-- tv+ b+ DI+++ D- G
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Reply With Quote
  #3   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 25-07-2005, 22:08
mechanicalbrain's Avatar
mechanicalbrain mechanicalbrain is offline
The red haired Dremel gnome!
FRC #0623 (Ohm robotics)
Team Role: Electrical
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,221
mechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to mechanicalbrain Send a message via Yahoo to mechanicalbrain
Re: are we alone in the universe?

that is what is so good about discusions. you see when we discuss our limited view evolves and changes and allows us to create a more educated opinion.
__________________
"Oh my God! There's an axe in my head."
623's 2006 home page
random mechanicalbrain slogans

Reply With Quote
  #4   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 25-07-2005, 22:29
Gdeaver Gdeaver is offline
Registered User
FRC #1640
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: West Chester, Pa.
Posts: 1,371
Gdeaver has a reputation beyond reputeGdeaver has a reputation beyond reputeGdeaver has a reputation beyond reputeGdeaver has a reputation beyond reputeGdeaver has a reputation beyond reputeGdeaver has a reputation beyond reputeGdeaver has a reputation beyond reputeGdeaver has a reputation beyond reputeGdeaver has a reputation beyond reputeGdeaver has a reputation beyond reputeGdeaver has a reputation beyond repute
Re: are we alone in the universe?

The original post as stated is a question of metaphysics. And as such we can not apply the scientific method to it. All we can do is state our individual human feelings and perceptions on the subject. We can not quantify our common perceptions and apply the tool of mathematics to come up with a model that many can agree is a valid model of our common perceptions of reality.
This post is a great example of why every student who is going to go to college for the sciences should take a course in philosophy and study metaphysics and religions. Religions is plural. Part of doing good science is understanding what questions can be studied scientifically and what ones can't.
Reply With Quote
  #5   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 26-07-2005, 00:01
KenWittlief KenWittlief is offline
.
no team
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 4,213
KenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond repute
Re: are we alone in the universe?

I dont understand the assertion that the question of the extent of life spread through the universe is a matter of metaphysics?

We have no problem clearly defining what is alive here on earth, and what is not 'life'. Why should there be any difficulty determining the probability of finding life elsewhere, based on what we already know.

Is their any question of whether we have found life on the moon, venus, mars, jupiter? is there any question of whether we can reasonably expect to find life on the sun?

Life interacts with the physical world in a well established manner. When does the search for life stop being a matter of physics and probability, and start becoming a matter of philosophy or metaphysics? When does it stop being hard-core science? when we get to the nearest star? the next one after that? 100 light years away?

Im speaking of life as we know it: physical organismism that interact with the physical world.

Last edited by KenWittlief : 26-07-2005 at 00:03.
Reply With Quote
  #6   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 26-07-2005, 00:10
KenWittlief KenWittlief is offline
.
no team
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 4,213
KenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond repute
Re: are we alone in the universe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc P.
But life began from simple amino-acids, with nothing more than a mixture of hydrogen, water, methane, and ammonia, all of which are common materials, no doubt found throughout the universe. Amino-acids have been created in a lab under conditions simulating the environment of early Earth. From another site:

Further studies showed that some amino acids would have combined with hydrogen cyanide (HCN), which is a byproduct of volcanic activity. This combination would form purines and pyrinidines, which are used to make nucleic acids, which in turn create DNA.

So essentially, atoms wouldn't have to form complex cells initially, but rather, start with more simple organic compounds, and combine/evolve into more complex molecules from there. This seems much more likely, and as it's been proven in the lab, is far from impossible to happen in other solar systems.
I agree that the first living cell could have been a combination of the right types of amino acids, but each molecule of that cell had to be the right type, in the right place, in the right sequence.

If you start with a swimming pool full of random amino acids, most of what you have in there will be tar or oil or other toxic substances, not the material you need to form protien, and then DNA.

Saying you will form DNA by forming the right amino acids first, and then combining them, doesnt diminish the probability of an entire cell forming by random. Its like saying I will guess this weeks lottery numbers, but I will guess them one at a time. It makes no difference. In the end, the odds are the same. The probability of that first cell forming spontainiously remains the same: astronomically small.
Reply With Quote
  #7   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 26-07-2005, 01:20
mechanicalbrain's Avatar
mechanicalbrain mechanicalbrain is offline
The red haired Dremel gnome!
FRC #0623 (Ohm robotics)
Team Role: Electrical
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,221
mechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to mechanicalbrain Send a message via Yahoo to mechanicalbrain
Re: are we alone in the universe?

i believe ken posted earlier that if their were life it would have DNA but i thought allot about that. if DNA is formed by specific amino acids and these in turn are created by specific reactions with certain chemicals than the only way aliens would have a similar form of DNA would for their to be similar conditions present. given the extremely distant probability of earth having a twin i doubt life will have similar building blocks. however how would other chemicals or the same chemicals form with completely different environmental stimuli (like extreme gravity or radiation). if we meet life biologist will have a field day and much of the founding blocks (DNA or even amino acids) will be insanely different from what we know. this of course assumes that the life we meet even has a chemical biology.
__________________
"Oh my God! There's an axe in my head."
623's 2006 home page
random mechanicalbrain slogans

Reply With Quote
  #8   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 26-07-2005, 01:43
sciguy125 sciguy125 is offline
Electrical Engineer
AKA: Phil Baltar
FRC #1351
Team Role: College Student
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 519
sciguy125 has a reputation beyond reputesciguy125 has a reputation beyond reputesciguy125 has a reputation beyond reputesciguy125 has a reputation beyond reputesciguy125 has a reputation beyond reputesciguy125 has a reputation beyond reputesciguy125 has a reputation beyond reputesciguy125 has a reputation beyond reputesciguy125 has a reputation beyond reputesciguy125 has a reputation beyond reputesciguy125 has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to sciguy125 Send a message via MSN to sciguy125 Send a message via Yahoo to sciguy125
Re: are we alone in the universe?

How about this:

We've concluded that the probability of life starting in the first place is obscenely low. We know for a fact that it has happened at least once though. What if it happened ONLY once? Not necessarily here though. They've found what could be bacteria in meteorites... If I'm not mistaken, they've found such mereorites a couple times. Some planet with life blew up (possibly Superman style) and something landed on earth providing the beginnings of life here. I think we decided that evolution works? If so, to me, that seems probable. Actually, it seems more likely than life starting on multiple planets... Something else that doesn't seem unreasonable to me is some advanced civilization "seeding" earth. If we ever acquire some sort of interplanetary travel, I'm sure someone would try it. (wait...I think that was on an episode of Star Trek...yes it was...but that doesn't change the fact that it's possible) I don't even think we need interplanetary travel. I'm sure Voyager has all sorts of stuff on it. Think of what would happen if it crashes into some earth-like planet. We could probably launch a few thousand canisters of stuff into space. They'll eventually crash into something.
__________________

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12
GE/S/P a-- e y-- r-- s:++ d+ h! X+++
t++ C+ P+ L++ E W++ w M-- V? PS+ PE+
5- R-- tv+ b+ DI+++ D- G
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Reply With Quote
  #9   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 26-07-2005, 02:42
mechanicalbrain's Avatar
mechanicalbrain mechanicalbrain is offline
The red haired Dremel gnome!
FRC #0623 (Ohm robotics)
Team Role: Electrical
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,221
mechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to mechanicalbrain Send a message via Yahoo to mechanicalbrain
Re: are we alone in the universe?

The problem isnt crashing into something. Think about this. Take an ameba and put it on the moon how long will it last? How about mars? maybe neptune? The fact is that life is very picky about its home. I would like to see some articles about life in meteors. Ive also heard about this but I would like to know the extent of this life.
__________________
"Oh my God! There's an axe in my head."
623's 2006 home page
random mechanicalbrain slogans

Reply With Quote
  #10   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 26-07-2005, 12:00
sciguy125 sciguy125 is offline
Electrical Engineer
AKA: Phil Baltar
FRC #1351
Team Role: College Student
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 519
sciguy125 has a reputation beyond reputesciguy125 has a reputation beyond reputesciguy125 has a reputation beyond reputesciguy125 has a reputation beyond reputesciguy125 has a reputation beyond reputesciguy125 has a reputation beyond reputesciguy125 has a reputation beyond reputesciguy125 has a reputation beyond reputesciguy125 has a reputation beyond reputesciguy125 has a reputation beyond reputesciguy125 has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to sciguy125 Send a message via MSN to sciguy125 Send a message via Yahoo to sciguy125
Re: are we alone in the universe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mechanicalbrain
The problem isnt crashing into something. Think about this. Take an ameba and put it on the moon how long will it last? How about mars? maybe neptune?
Well, I'm not necessarily talking about dropping off living things, just the beginnings of it. We decided that getting the correct chemicals going is hard enough, so why not drop those off?
__________________

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12
GE/S/P a-- e y-- r-- s:++ d+ h! X+++
t++ C+ P+ L++ E W++ w M-- V? PS+ PE+
5- R-- tv+ b+ DI+++ D- G
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

Last edited by sciguy125 : 26-07-2005 at 12:07.
Reply With Quote
  #11   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 26-07-2005, 12:07
KenWittlief KenWittlief is offline
.
no team
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 4,213
KenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond repute
Re: are we alone in the universe?

I was thinking, wouldnt it be ironic if some advanced alien life was colonizing the galaxy, and they discovered you cant put higher lifeforms on a lifeless planet, because there is no organic material for plants and such

so you have to start out by maybe introducing algee into the waters, let that take for a few million years, then maybe seaweed and some plankton, wait another 10 million years

then add fish, and maybe some smaller land based plants and animals, slowly working your way up

so that after 50 million years you would have a planet that was stable and suitable for intelligent lifeforms to colonize

wouldnt it be ironic if they were doing that here on earth, and humans evolved by chance, or by mistake

and they show up someday and say "What are you doing here? you totally screwed up the whole planet!"

we may have to start all over now!

they walk away muttering "Oh man! you turn your back for 100,000 years and look what happens!"

Last edited by KenWittlief : 26-07-2005 at 12:10.
Reply With Quote
  #12   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 26-07-2005, 17:04
Alan Anderson's Avatar
Alan Anderson Alan Anderson is offline
Software Architect
FRC #0045 (TechnoKats)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Kokomo, Indiana
Posts: 9,113
Alan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond repute
Re: are we alone in the universe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mechanicalbrain
Think about this. Take an ameba and put it on the moon how long will it last?
Bacteria survived on Surveyor 3's camera for a year and a half before the Apollo 12 crew brought them back from the moon.
Reply With Quote
  #13   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 27-07-2005, 03:17
mechanicalbrain's Avatar
mechanicalbrain mechanicalbrain is offline
The red haired Dremel gnome!
FRC #0623 (Ohm robotics)
Team Role: Electrical
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,221
mechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond reputemechanicalbrain has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to mechanicalbrain Send a message via Yahoo to mechanicalbrain
Re: are we alone in the universe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Anderson
Bacteria survived on Surveyor 3's camera for a year and a half before the Apollo 12 crew brought them back from the moon.
there you go now you know. slightly off topic but has anyone seen this http://www.mirror.co.uk/printable_ve...siteid=947 62. Before people say its far fetched. Everything on this is being studied and have had plenty of success. I know this because i looked up each one and some like medicine fruit already exists and is working its way through testing. nice to know i was born in time for immortality!
__________________
"Oh my God! There's an axe in my head."
623's 2006 home page
random mechanicalbrain slogans

Reply With Quote
  #14   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 26-07-2005, 10:05
KenWittlief KenWittlief is offline
.
no team
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 4,213
KenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond repute
Re: are we alone in the universe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sciguy125
How about this:

We've concluded that the probability of life starting in the first place is obscenely low. We know for a fact that it has happened at least once though. What if it happened ONLY once? Not necessarily here though.

I could accept the idea of life spreading from one planet to another within the same solar systems, organic material being blasted off one planet, frozen in space, and managing to land on another planet and carry on there.

But I find that much less likely to happen between star systems, where the nearest inhabitable star/planet might be 20 or 50 light years away. For life to be moved from one star system to another by natural forces, the time involved would be tens of thousands of years in transit, and the acceleration required to obtain those speeds would shred the cells.

But if intelligent life is colonizing the galaxy, with sub-light speed space craft, then studies have shown our entire galaxy could be colonized in about 2 million years.

Which is another argument for a lifeless galaxy/universe. The galaxy is 16 billion years old. If it only take 2 million years (0.0125%) to colonize the galaxy then, where are they? Where are the other colonies and why are we not in contact with them? Every inhabitable planet in the galaxy should be colonized by now.
Reply With Quote
  #15   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 26-07-2005, 10:32
Dave.Norton Dave.Norton is offline
Registered User
FRC #1157
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Boulder, CO
Posts: 16
Dave.Norton is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: are we alone in the universe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KenWittlief
But if intelligent life is colonizing the galaxy, with sub-light speed space craft, then studies have shown our entire galaxy could be colonized in about 2 million years.

Which is another argument for a lifeless galaxy/universe. The galaxy is 16 billion years old. If it only take 2 million years (0.0125%) to colonize the galaxy then, where are they? Where are the other colonies and why are we not in contact with them? Every inhabitable planet in the galaxy should be colonized by now.
Ah, but it hasn't had all of the 16 billion years, present theory has it taking 3 generations of stars to go supernova before the elements required for life as we understand it came into being, so I guess the question is what is the mean time to failure of a star. We also suffer a second interesting phenomena, and that is the cyclic nature of the solar system oscillating up and down though the galactic arm creating the potential for extinction events. And unfortunately this doesn't even begin to address our most pressing issue: intelligence may not be a long term survival strategy. Look how long the dinosaurs lasted; 20 thousand years ago Neanderthals were still wandering around.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Atheists? TheShadow Chit-Chat 82 28-06-2005 10:23
Am I alone in the universe? Madison Chit-Chat 4 22-02-2004 20:34
R. Buckminster Fuller: THE HISTORY (and Mystery) OF THE UNIVERSE Ken Leung Math and Science 1 09-06-2003 01:41
The Universe is Large Chubtoad Chit-Chat 25 12-08-2002 15:15


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 14:04.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi