Is there really inspiration in teams?

[RbtGal1351]

Originally Posted by Philip W.

I hope to see that these upcoming posts answer yes to the question, "Is there really inspiration in teams?"

Originally Posted by sciguy125

Well, I'm not really sure if I can give you that answer from our team. The engineering people learn things and are given new ideas from other teams. They see how things work in the engineering world. One saw crab drive and wanted to design/build it. However, we don't seem to really be bringing in new engineers, just solidifying the existing ones. So is 1351 inspiring people? I guess it depends on how you look at it.

well i know i've been inspired. keeping this short, i wouldn't have the interest in software or programming if it wasn't for FIRST. and now I'm totally addicted to programming, and have way too many programming projects to do at the moment.

also, i'm sure some of the other people have been inspired, and would never have done or learned how to do some of the things they're doing now if it wasn't for being involved with FIRST.

(See Phil's post for 1351's info. This was just an addition about the are-we-inspired part...)

[J Flex 188]

Honestly, as a former leader of this team and as an international business major, I thank you for saying that. That is exactly what I wanted to say. Coming out of the FIRST experience with the ultimate destination of being an engineer does not necessarily mean you have benefited any more or any less than say, an Ian Mackenzie or a Karthik (Kanagasabapathy? whoa its in spell check)

Quantifying the benefit of FIRST and being inspired is pointless unless you are attempting to count the reach of the program, in that it continues to expand. There will always be the subtle nuances of when a student first picks up a tool and learns not to be afraid of it, or to ignore when some mentor claims that one can put in a washer back wards, compared to when someone realized their ultimate destination should be engineering, as opposed to business. Personally, I think FIRST strives for this type of balance, or at least it should.

Originally Posted by Cory

I don't think you can measure inspiration in terms of how many students go on to study engineering. You can be inspired in different ways. You could have always wanted to do something else with your life, but still gain a respect for engineering. While FIRST's main goal is to inspire students about science and technology, I'm sure some students have been inspired on the business/management side of thing as well.

I'm actually having trouble quantifying "inspired", now that I start thinking about it.

Does inspired mean not knowing anything about engineering/science, and then going on to get a degree and work in those areas? Does it mean joining a FIRST team just for the heck of it, and then loving it so much you spend a good portion of the rest of your high school career doing it? Does it mean gaining a greater understanding and respect for what engineers do? How about those stories of kids who lived rough lives, who seemed to be on the wrong track, and through FIRST got themselves back on the right track?

I can say what inspires me, but I don't think you can quantify all the different ways the thousands of students in FIRST have/will be inspired by.

[Philip W.]

Originally Posted by Cory

I don't think you can measure inspiration in terms of how many students go on to study engineering. You can be inspired in different ways. You could have always wanted to do something else with your life, but still gain a respect for engineering. While FIRST's main goal is to inspire students about science and technology, I'm sure some students have been inspired on the business/management side of thing as well.

Originally Posted by J Flex 188

Quantifying the benefit of FIRST and being inspired is pointless unless you are attempting to count the reach of the program, in that it continues to expand. There will always be the subtle nuances of when a student first picks up a tool and learns not to be afraid of it, or to ignore when some mentor claims that one can put in a washer back wards, compared to when someone realized their ultimate destination should be engineering, as opposed to business. Personally, I think FIRST strives for this type of balance, or at least it should.

These are definitely truthful points. Understanding how to orientate a washer and experiencing the business and leadership aspects of a FIRST team are very important parts of the FIRST program, but they're not the main objective. FIRST was created to solve the problem that there were not enough youths starting careers in science, technology, engineering and math. The questions in this thread are a crude method to investigate the degree of engineering inspiration on differently run teams. How effective does your team achieve FIRST's main goal in the current way it is run?

While I'm at it, here's my two cents and tangent to the topic. The business and leadership aspects of a FIRST team seem to be neglected by the FIRST vision. Both aspects are very important in running an efficient team, and leadership can easily be applied to later in life (not that business can't). The most recognition FIRST has for these aspects is the Entrepreneurship Award. I suppose it's underrated because FIRST is focusing on quantity over quality, we don't really hear any success stories about a FIRST alumnus that is extremely successful from joining FIRST. This is understandable, but still a shame. (If you want to go off topic by continuing this tangent, please do the very least and answer some of the questions if you haven't already)

[jonathan lall]

Originally Posted by Philip W.

These are definitely truthful points. Understanding how to orientate a washer and experiencing the business and leadership aspects of a FIRST team are very important parts of the FIRST program, but they're not the main objective. FIRST was created to solve the problem that there were not enough youths starting careers in science, technology, engineering and math. The questions in this thread are a crude method to investigate the degree of engineering inspiration on differently run teams. How effective does your team achieve FIRST's main goal in the current way it is run?

While I'm at it, here's my two cents and tangent to the topic. The business and leadership aspects of a FIRST team seem to be neglected by the FIRST vision. Both aspects are very important in running an efficient team, and leadership can easily be applied to later in life (not that business can't). The most recognition FIRST has for these aspects is the Entrepreneurship Award. I suppose it's underrated because FIRST is focusing on quantity over quality, we don't really hear any success stories about a FIRST alumnus that is extremely successful from joining FIRST. This is understandable, but still a shame. (If you want to go off topic by continuing this tangent, please do the very least and answer some of the questions if you haven't already)

Phil, you've only addressed the last sentence of Cory's quoted statement, a statement I have to say is very true. You in fact imply that it is possible to measure who has been "inspired" by what they do later in life. You try to show a correlation between FIRST and going into engineering later, and further try to show causation. This does not exist. Tristan, for example, would have likely said he'd want to be an engineer before FIRST. Jeff, for example, has surely benefitted from the engineering side of FIRST despite the fact that he's going into business. FIRST has changed people in ways they don't realize, and mostly for the better. The range is broad; from improving work ethic, to improving self-confidence, to making someone want to go to university, to keeping people out of gangs, to making an arts student want to work for an engineering firms. The possibilities of inspiration are not only endless, but immeasurable, and this measure of inspiration being used here does not give everyone credit.

For Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology; there's that word again. But beside inspiration is another word: recognition. One of the main goals Dean Kamen set out to achieve was to raise awareness of science and technology in the culture. If someone graduates from high school and his FIRST team and goes on to become a construction worker, he might not go and do great things. That doesn't mean he wasn't inspired. We may think less of him, but that is not related to how "inspired" he was. Heck, maybe FIRST made him want to be a construction worker instead of a janitor.*

Having said that, I certainly understand the credential and quantifiable aspect of inspiration that this thread is about. I don't reject the fact that a team that has 100% university students is sure to have inspired more than a team with 50%. I just think a lot is being overlooked by looking at inspiration soleley in this manner. Using your standards however, it's true not everyone is inspired by FIRST, but a lot more people have been inspired a lot more than you show. On our team alone, I can name far more than 2 recent alumni of 188 that are taking science, math, engineering, or technology courses (they are all in college or university, including numerous Ivy Leagues), so even here your premise about our team going downhill is faulty.

Just sayin'.

*No disrespect to either of these occupations but perception is a powerful thing.

[Philip W.]

Originally Posted by jonathan lall

Phil, you've only addressed the last sentence of Cory's quoted statement, a statement I have to say is very true.

I still do realise (more now than before) that inspiration happens in more ways then one in FIRST, but how could I possibly measure those other ways? Once again, this is a "crude method to investigate the degree of engineering inspiration on differently run teams." I suppose that I didn't emphasise this part enough in my first post and I'm very sorry for that.

Originally Posted by jonathan lall

The possibilities of inspiration are not only endless, but immeasurable, and this measure of inspiration being used here does not give everyone credit.

...

I just think a lot is being overlooked by looking at inspiration soleley in this manner. Using your standards however, it's true not everyone is inspired by FIRST, but a lot more people have been inspired a lot more than you show.

I admit that it does not give everyone credit, many FIRST alumni aren't great engineers, but I'm sure they're great in whatever field they chose as their career. I suppose this is pretty much an opportunity for teams to gloat about their alumni and how great of a university they are attending, but am I to create a new thread to appease the arts students?

Originally Posted by jonathan lall

On our team alone, I can name far more than 2 recent alumni of 188 that are taking science, math, engineering, or technology courses (they are all in college or university, including numerous Ivy Leagues), so even here your premise about our team going downhill is faulty.

I was talking about our last two years of alumni, and if even then I'm still wrong, I simply didn't know. I suppose it was a bad example of our team to mention only the last two years, because I do recall a lot of our alumni before those two years taking science and technology courses in university. But is our team going downhill? Simply because members aren't into science and technology as a life career? Of course not!

[Mr. Lim]

"Is there really inspiration in teams?"

Plenty

We can try and come up with metrics to try and quantitatively determine the exact amount of inspiration on every team till we're blue in the face. In fact, with enough prodding, I'm sure Karthik will supply you with a nice Excel spreadsheet to automagically determine just that .

But I have a better idea... just ask!

Ask Mark (H or B), Karthik, Ian, Roly, Steve, Tamara, Tristan, Jon, Justin, Jeff, Neel, Zaid, or myself. Of course the answer you'd get from these people is fairly obvious, but what is not obvious is which team all these people came from.

Confused? They're all 188 alumni, so aren't they all from the same team? Check Andy Baker's post, and take a glimpse at Steve W's comments. Teams are cyclical - the team that "Celestica built" was different from the team Karthik and I were on, which was different than the team that Ian and Tristan were on... and that team was much different from the one you are on now.

Student-built/mentor-built/student-led/mentor-led, we've been there and back again, every which way - and all throughout these transformations, go back to that list of names above, and you'll find inspired people at each and every stage.

But what about other teams?

All teams are the same. We are all inspired A LOT. I tend to over-generalize with statements like these, because obviously not all teams are EXACTLY the same... but we are more alike than we care to admit. Why do you think teams (including ours at times) keep finding the need to claim they are "more student-built" or "more student-led" than the next team? It's just an easy way to create our own "uniqueness" which otherwise isn't there.

[Kims Robot]

I get that a lot of people here are trying to say that its hard to measure inspiration... but let me take this to the real world, as I do see a great point in starting this thread.

Point 1: A lot of companies ask their mentors just this... how can you give me numbers, metrics, anything logical that quantifies what exactly I am spending all this money on??

While we cant exactly define inspiration, we can put some metrics to it like what is the increase in high school students that go on to higher education? How many kids on your team go on to careers in science and technology (ie this thread!!)? What schools are they going to (this thread)?? And how do I get them to come work for me when they are all done?!?! Companies want to see some value out of what they are doing. True a lot of them will do it no matter what the answers to these questions are... but if we can back up what they give with great facts (which FIRST actually does if you look at some of their reports), that relate to your team, it really helps justify it, especially to any people in the company who may think there is a better way to spend that money.

Point 2: Metrics are real life engineering.

I've mentioned this before, but I am actually part of a group that is initiating CMMI in our company. Part of the improvement cycle in the engineering world is to take metrics on how you are currently doing so you can determine how and if you have improved. This is HUGE now adays as every company is trying to get ahead. We have to put metrics to nearly everything we do. The other day we were discussing what kind of metrics we could take on our testing process, failure rates, number of revisions to documents, etc.

Metrics are a way to judge how you are doing, and also look ahead to see how you can improve. I think this thread was started with a similar intention. He's not asking "what does inspiration mean" He is asking how can we begin to quantify inspiration in one way, not every way, not the big broad picture, but how do we put some math to this to present to our companies... how do we justify FIRST's mission. Have we really been inspiring students? or are most of them just doing what they would have done without all this extra money being spent on them.

*puts the soapbox back in the closet*

[Kims Robot]

This new thread EXACTLY proves my point Check out question #3!