Attention engineers...What type are you and why?

[MikeDubreuil]

I'll make this my coming out thread...
After 6 years in FIRST, 3 in high school and 3 in college - I am now an engineer. I will also officially change my status on the forum

I graduated on August 20th, 2005 from Wentworth Institute of Technology with a degree in Computer Engineering Technology. Today, I work as an Associate Software Engineer at Textron Systems. I chose software engineering because I love the software aspect of control systems.

Originally Posted by sciguy125

One more thing: what's this PE deal? I'm starting my third year of college and I've heard nothing of this. I flipped through my Intro to Engineering book again and I don't see any mention of it. I think you're all lying to me...

PE is an acronym for Professional Engineer. It's a license than you can get to certify yourself in a particular state as a qualified engineer.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Originally Posted by sciguy125

After wasting the first part of the morning of the last day before I go back to engineer training to read this entire thread, I feel that I must comment on it.

I think that the person who started this thread intended to ask professional engineers (people who work as engineers in the real world) why they are in their field. I disagree, however, with those who say that "engineers" are people with engineering degrees and seem to take offense to those who think otherwise. I feel that anyone who "engineers" (verb) has the right to call themselves an engineer. Meaning that they can in the proper situations, of course. I don't mean to say that FIRST high school students should put down "engineer" on a job application. However, I don't think that they should have to say that they aren't engineers when someone asks them why they are in engineering.

One more thing: what's this PE deal? I'm starting my third year of college and I've heard nothing of this. I flipped through my Intro to Engineering book again and I don't see any mention of it. I think you're all lying to me...

Phil,
Just because you do engineering work does not make you an engineer, Calling yourself an engineer gives others the wrong impression of your capabilities. There are a variety of disciplines that give a degree that shows that your field of study was engineering. A college student or someone that has taken engineering classes without the final piece of paper is an engineering student. The Professional Engineer is someone who not only has enough school credit to be given the piece of paper but is able to take a lengthy test demonstrating your ability to put engineering principles to work.(taken in the final year of school in many cases) The final step in most states is a minimum employment period where you perform engineering work, (Illinois is 2 years) and then take another proficiency test. The PE title allows you to perform engineering duties that non-PE engineers perform. (much of this work involves design that affects people or large financial investment in a project.) Even accoustic engineers need a PE for certain design and testing so as to be able to defend a product in a court of law. When a member of CD signs on as "engineer" but is really a high school student whose team title happens to be "engineer" many of the nearly 9000 members will take their opinion as gospel. This could be harmful to teams who need a firm and accurate answer from a knowledgeable source. Although many students know the correct answer, the first one to post may not be right. Anyone who posts here with a question directed at a engineer should get an engineer's response.
As always, (and to follow up one of Andy Baker's posts) a real name, a real birthday and a real occupation in your signature line goes a long way for communication to the masses.

[Ken Leung]

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

Phil,
Just because you do engineering work does not make you an engineer, Calling yourself an engineer gives others the wrong impression of your capabilities.

Indulge me for a second as I draw the example of becoming a doctor.

Becoming a doctor take many years. It is a long, arduous, expensive process that can only be accomplished with great dedication. Without going into full details let's take a look at the major obstacles:

1. High School -> college applications
2. College, pre-Med major -> Med school application/interview, MCAT
3. Medical school -> USMLE (part 1 taken in the 2nd year, part 2 taken in the 4th year)
4. Residency (internship) -> USMLE (part 3 taken in the first year of residency)
5. Medical License approved by the Liaison Committee on Medical Education.

Boy, just looking at the list give me a chill on my back. Also makes me pray my kids won't want to be a doctor...

It takes years of dedication for someone to become a doctor, in addition to the numerous tests and application processes. If some students come up to me and say, "I know how to cure a cold, I am a doctor now!", I would say, "Sorry kid, you have a long way to go."

Granted, human lives are at stake if you become a doctor, but isn't it the same for engineers? Depending on what our professions are, we may be responsible in building an apartment building, a car, a bridge, a satellite, a tank, or a computer. Many of our accomplishments involve protecting/improving human lives just like doctors. If we screw up, lives can be at stake.

I've always believed to gain a title, you have to earn it. Being an engineer tell us and the rest of the world that you've gone through the hardship to become one. It shows your dedication and expertise in the field you are in.

Does becoming an engineer means you know all there is to know about being one? No. Learning is a life long journey. There is never a point where you say, "I know enough. I don't need to learn anymore." There are times when you will be the first person to encounter a problem never faced by any human beings before. Do you call yourself an engineer after you know everything about that problem?

Becoming an engineer is a process. In the continuum between wanting to be one and finally becoming one is a point when we gain the title. A point that cannot be solely defined by how much you know, how smart you are, or how much experience you have.

Perhaps it can only be defined by the following incident:

During your engineering school, a spark suddenly lit off in your head, and you gain an epiphany of the grant scheme of engineering, it might be an equation or a philosophy, that enables you to solve any problems you may encounter in the future. Maybe that’s when people gain the invisible light bulb on top of their head. Or maybe that’s when your glasses reach a certain thickness .

Or maybe the truth is, during engineering school, you’ve memorized enough equation, finished enough labs, passed enough tests, read enough books, and understood enough theories when you finally:

1. Understood what it takes to become an engineer,
2. Learn enough from school to start your own journey of learning and enlightenment,
3. Gained enough tools under your belt to get you started in the industry of your choice.

In order words, maybe you become an engineer when you no longer have to be babysitted any more…


Or maybe there is a Wiseman on top of a mountain, and every year you climb the mountain and ask him, “Am I an engineer yet?” and he says “No.” and you go back to school and visit him every year until he finally says “Yes.” Fortunately, there are a lot of "Wiseman" in this forum already, so there's no need to climb any mountains anymore.

[sciguy125]

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

This could be harmful to teams who need a firm and accurate answer from a knowledgeable source. Although many students know the correct answer, the first one to post may not be right. Anyone who posts here with a question directed at a engineer should get an engineer's response.

That's what I was going for. If someone is seeking professional advice, non-professionals should either say nothing or make it clear that they aren't professionals.

I do some photography and, on occasion, people talk to me about it. To Average Joe, the equipment I carry around looks pro. I say that I am a photographer. If they start asking questions about professional photographers, I make it clear that it's just a hobby for me. While being a pro photographer doesn't come with the same responsibility as a pro engineer or doctor, there is some training involved. Actually, I think that being a good pro photographer (or many other forms of art) may require a creativity that can't be taught. I'm sure that they would also take offense to amateurs posing as pros as the engineers here seem to be.

My point is that I don't see any problem with people calling themselves engineers as long as they are not posing as professionals when professional advice is sought.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Originally Posted by sciguy125

My point is that I don't see any problem with people calling themselves engineers as long as they are not posing as professionals when professional advice is sought.

Isn't that confusing? That is like a favorite saying in our business... When an individual is giving a medical opinion and someone asks "Are you a doctor?" the answer is "No, but I play one on TV!". There is no way to know when a person's signature is "engineer" whether they are practicing engineers or not. I would prefer the signature to be student/robot engineer or simply robot engineer or student engineer. Any of these titles will garner my respect for your point of view. Signing engineer when you are a student leaves me with a much different opinion when I find that you are in fact a student giving engineering responses. I would think that other students would be more in awe of a student or robot engineer that answers accurately and like myself would hold a vastly different opinion of someone who signs "engineer" but is not and gives an inaccurate response to a desperate team who is looking for immediate help.

[JVN]

Originally Posted by sciguy125

My point is that I don't see any problem with people calling themselves engineers as long as they are not posing as professionals when professional advice is sought.

But...
To call yourself an engineer, you imply professionalism that isn't there and your words carry that implied credibility that comes with the title. Especially when there is no opportunity for a disclaimer.

The example that Al mentioned is an example of this: the 8th grader who's words have more weight simply because he refers to himself as an "engineer" in his title.

The argument could be made of course... that everyone should just make their own judgments and ignore any supposed, possibly self-granted "titles".
(Nah! )


Personal note to my father:
Talk to me in four years.

[sciguy125]

Originally Posted by JVN

To call yourself an engineer, you imply professionalism that isn't there and your words carry that implied credibility that comes with the title.

I understand where you're coming from, but I'm not sure if I'm willing to concede my position just yet.

Originally Posted by JVN

The argument could be made of course... that everyone should just make their own judgments and ignore any supposed, possibly self-granted "titles".
(Nah! )

I'm not trying to make a case for my above comment, but people should always scrutinize information no matter where it comes from. Everyone is liable to make mistakes. The fact that I've seen an episode of Modern Marvels titled "Engineering Disasters 16" shows that even professionals aren't immune. You also can't expect people to know everything. I'm sure that for years to come, science teachers will teach that the Milky Way is a spiral galaxy, but they're wrong.

[mechanicalbrain]

You know, i think i said all i can on the other page. i think if Sciguy or anyone else can look at that criteria and say they are engineers then they are entitled to because who am i to lay out the facts of life. However anyone who claims to be a true engineer must take responsibility for the anything that happens as a result. I really think the last post really said allot and recommend anybody who posts on this thread reads it.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Whoa dudes!
First, people can't be expected to be allowed to call themselves engineers and have everyone accept that. If that was allowed you would be referencing "Engineering Disasters XXXXXXXXXXX" where the number would equal the number of hamburgers sold at McDs.
Second, the spiral galaxy position you point to should be second guessed by the fact it is signed by "TacoMan". It references another article quoted here..."A barred spiral galaxy is a spiral galaxy with a band of bright stars emerging from the center and running across the middle of the galaxy. Spiral arms appear to emerge from the ends of the "bar" in these galaxies, whereas they appear to emerge directly from the core in ordinary spiral galaxies." Note in the first sentence that a "barred galaxy" is a "spiral galaxy". Kinda shoots holes in the reference doesn't it?
As to the remaining question, what responsibility will any individual bear when he tells a team to connect a power connector to a PWM output? The answer is none. His self imposed title will not prevent the damage or replace the defective unit or help advance the understanding of electrical fundamentals. Although there is no insurance that a working engineer will give the correct response, the odds are weighted in his favor of being correct. Even I am not infallible and will make mistakes from time to time but I will tell you when I don't know or can't remember. That is a call to another engineer to step in and accurately answer the question. Luckily, there are an abundance of individuals who post here who can be trusted for their answers. The signature tells a great deal, I sign as an engineer/mentor, born in 1951, and rookie in 1996. You can derive a lot of pertinent data from those three statements. Contrasted with engineer, born in BLANK, rookie 2005.
Now guys, I hope you don't think I am beating up on you, I am passionate about this particular issue because I have seen damage done by those who call themselves engineers who are not. I want everyone who asks a question to get an accurate answer the first time, and will know that forevermore, they can ask a question and believe in the answer.

[mechanicalbrain]

Actualy they can. This is where you see a diference between engineer and professional engineer. Also I wouldn't trust an engineer to connect a power connector to a pwm any more than anyone else unless they have some experience (infact i have run into that EXACT problem) unless they have experience with the electrical system.

[sciguy125]

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

First, people can't be expected to be allowed to call themselves engineers and have everyone accept that. If that was allowed you would be referencing "Engineering Disasters XXXXXXXXXXX" where the number would equal the number of hamburgers sold at McDs.

I think you misunderstood me there. I was just trying to make a general statement which has nothing to do with my position on engineer titles.

[RogerR]

Originally Posted by mechanicalbrain

Actualy they can. This is where you see a diference between engineer and professional engineer. Also I wouldn't trust an engineer to connect a power connector to a pwm any more than anyone else unless they have some experience (infact i have run into that EXACT problem) unless they have experience with the electrical system.

as its been pointed out before, an engineer is someone who's graduated from an accredited engineering program. a professional engineer is one who has met a set of standards, usually involving a set number of years in the field (4 in florida), passing an exam, and graduating from an accredited engineering program. both require that you graduate from an accredited engineering program. otherwise, you aren't an engineer.

this is not to say you haven't engineered. to borrow a quote from one of my books, "To Engineer Is Human". but just 'cause you've engineered, doesn't make you an engineer. there's a set of standards that dictate that.

[sciguy125]

It looks like we’ve stalemated again. We’re just running around in circles because everyone views the world in their own way and everyone wants to use certain words in certain ways. Even if we find a way to standardize our definitions, people still aren’t willing to drop their own perceptions of the world.

In this thread, we can’t agree on whether an engineer is someone who engineers, or someone who holds an engineering degree. Which came first? The engineer or the engineering degree?

In the mentor-run vs student-run teams discussion, we couldn’t agree on exactly what FIRST is about. Whether FIRST is about learning or inspireing... Whether inspiration comes from watching or doing...

In our discussion of life on other planets, we couldn’t agree on how probable (or improbable) something has to be before we can consider it possible.

Any discussion/debate that delves into the philosophy of life will ultimately end this way. And, as we’ve seen, starting out as a scientific discussion doesn’t mean that it won’t turn philosophical toward the end.

[mechanicalbrain]

Thats why i like philosophical debates! Nobody is right and nobody is wrong just a free exchange of ideology. Is great to see how people with vastly different opinions will stand steadfast behind their own ideas and how they react to differing opinions.

[Madison]

Somebody is always right and somebody is always wrong in all subjects wherein there exist opposing viewpoints. What most people like, it seems, is not that there's 'no right answer,' but that there's little likelihood they'll be proven wrong.