Should teams be pushed to make higher quality robots?

[shyra1353]

Yes, to the outsiders, it is important to be watching pretty robots move around the field.

But you have to look at the people involved in building the robots and the goal of FIRST. What is more inspirational to the students? Having a gorgeous robot who just sits on the field and might be able to get you points at the end of the match if the other two robots make it back in time because she doesnt move. Or having a robot that isn't so visually pleasing, but she works and she does what she was intended to do? Which one of those two robots is going to make the students want to return? The one that looks good in pictures, or the one that looks good in vidoes?

[sanddrag]

Originally Posted by shyra1353

The one that looks good in pictures, or the one that looks good in vidoes?

My point is not that you must sacrifice one to get the other. My point is that you CAN have time, money, and resources for both if you are determined to make it happen. Believe it or not, it is possible to build a robot that both looks good and performs well.

Also, I think if you read between the lines, several of the posts in this thread actually go to support my point that a lot of teams don't care and don't strive for more because they don't think it's necessary, they don't want to spend the time, or then don't think they can. I have no jurisdiction over how any team chooses to spend their time or whatever, but what I'm saying is don't sell yourselves short. You are capable of more than you know. Don't fall into that "we have no big sponsors and are lucky if our hack saw blade is sharp" mentality. Instead, do something about it. With a little effort and determination, you can suprise yourself with what you're able to pull off.

[shyra1353]

SOME teams have the money, time, and resources. Others don't. And that is always going to happen. Teams all have their own set of behind the curtain problems that they have to deal with., whether its money problems, resource problems, management problems, or even just social problems within the team. And all teams have to work together to overcome these problems.

I agree that a great looking robot is nice, and I should have stated that earlier. But, it is not necessary, and it should not be a requirement. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so to some pretty is a robot that can function smoothly, but to others it may be something completely different.

You say with a little effort as if there are a lot of teams who aren't putting in a lot of effort already. Being in FIRST is not an easy task. And many times, teams are hanging on by a thread. That's the reason a lot of teams don't have the time, etc. to beautify their already working robots.

In engineering, the visual aspect of a product is just as important as the functionality of said product, and I will agree with that. But, FIRST is meant to mimick the engineering world, not copy it exactly. If it were to do that, I would be expecting a cheque in the mail tomorrow.

[CJO]

You guys are getting too hung up on visual meaning "nicely painted" as opposed to "not canned together." One of our favorite sayiongs is "you can't just put a bearing in and ship it." The point, "git er done" but do it right.

More importantly, aluminum polish is surprisingly cheap (a couple of dollars for a whole tube) and it gives the freshman something to do.

There is no reason why so many robots need to look like overgrown erector sets, especially from teams with 3 digit numbers.

Furthermore, as I have stated earlier, a good design is one where the function dictates a form that is clean by itslef and that does not need to be covered.

[wilshire]

it should not be a requirement that the robots look pretty and neat. There should however be a clear understanding and following of the safety issues that could arrise with a robot. It should be able to complete its task and do it in a safe manner. In my eyes that robot can beat and CNCed or TIGed robot anyday that can't even do the task for the game. While it being visually appealing is nice it is still not a must and probably will never be. We are given an objective and a task. If a robot that has tape hanging off it can do do the task then how are you to say it is less than any other robot.

[sciguy125]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

My point is that you CAN have time, money, and resources for both if you are determined to make it happen.

Well, anything is possible. If we wanted to, it'd be possible to set up a colony on the moon. The problem is that some teams aren't as well off as others. Nigeria would have to work a lot harder to get their moon colony going than the US would. For some teams, the amount of energy needed to get on par with some of FIRST's more prestigious teams might not be worth it. I'm not saying that they have an excuse to show up with a taped together cardboard robot, but it might not be pratical for them to have their robot CNCed. If they spent all their time looking for resources, they wouldn't have time to build the robot and just have fun.

Originally Posted by CJO

More importantly, aluminum polish is surprisingly cheap (a couple of dollars for a whole tube) and it gives the freshman something to do.

We make our freshman file recently cut things (many times, they were the ones that were forced to cut it). It's become a right of passage in the mechanical groups. Well, either that or a "I had to do it, so you have to do it too" kind of thing...

[Jack Jones]

You cannot push quality any more than you can push a team or any team member to do anything they’re not inclined to do. Quality has nothing to do with desire – you can’t wish quality. Quality has nothing to do with time, or money, or the other guy’s attitude.

Quality has everything to do with craftsmanship. The problem, if you want to call it that, is that craftsmanship is not something like facial hair that you wake up one morning to find that you have. Could it be that the teams you admire are the ones with people who have learned the tricks of the trade, and others who are willing and able to learn them as well? Isn’t that why FIRST came to be?

[sanddrag]

Originally Posted by CJO

More importantly, aluminum polish is surprisingly cheap (a couple of dollars for a whole tube) and it gives the freshman something to do.

There is no reason why so many robots need to look like overgrown erector sets, especially from teams with 3 digit numbers.

I don't think the freshmen comment was a very nice thing to say. At least on our team the freshmen are some of the greatest members. One was an operator and one was a driver. One did machining, one did wiring. Don't be so quick to talk them down.

I do agree with your statement about the erector sets though. That is exactly my point. Well, there might reasons but those reasons should be overcome with more effort and determination.

And yes, CNC, TIG, and anodizing and whatnot doesn't instantly equal quality. But I think that something that appears to be "slapped together" instantly represents lack of quality.

Why do teams spend a little extra money, time, and effort in making their robots look nice? Because they can. And what too many teams don't realize is that they can too! Don't underestimate yourselves; that's all I'm saying.

With that, I look forward to a year filled with well functioning, high quality, and aesthetically pleasing robots!

[JohnBoucher]

How soon you forget. 2004 One-Day Bot
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=27919
IMHO this was the "Best" bot of 2004.

[Steve W]

After reading this whole thread twice I have decided to put 2cents in.

Pretty robots, who cares? Quality robots are another matter.

I believe that some that have posted do not really understand all that goes on with different FIRST teams. There are a lot of teams that ship their robots not even built. With the restrictions that they have placed on them there is a real pressure to finish. There are teams that work out of basements and garages. There are teams with full shops, engineers, craftsmen, professionals at their disposal. We MUST NOT look down on others and expect them all to have the same amount of resources, dedication and time as we do.

The team that I joined met a t a mentors house and we worked in the garage and basement. They were able to find someone with a mill to do some of our work. Everything else was done in the garage. As the team gained experience the robot gained quality. We still don't have the prettiest robot around but we do take pride in our quality.

That said their are teams that just don't know how to do something properly. I was at an event 2 years ago and was doing some inspecting. One team just didn't have their pneumatics up to snuff. If you looked at it, it was like a rats nest. I stopped my inspecting and went back to that team. We spent a few hours going over everything so that they could pass inspect. I was also able to give pointers on "Good Housekeeping" on the robot. Gave reasons on why we should have neat wiring and pneumatics. The next year this team had really improved with the wiring and layout.

Sometimes we have to put ourselves into the other teams scenario. When I talked to the mentors of the above team I found out why. The team was designed as a student team. There were mostly new students. Mentors were new or not knowledgeable on some of the robot. There were financial issues. BUT the team did show, worked hard on their robot and made it to the elim rounds. They were happy, inspired and improved when they left. The next year I saw them with another team showing them the lessons that they were taught.

FIRST is a learning, growing and inspiring organization. We can never dictate pretty. We can however encourage and teach quality.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Of course we push teams to make better quality robots. That's why there are inspections. That's why we answer questions for whoever visits our pits. It is why we proudly post pictures of assemblies and robots. But more importantly, a quality robot in my mind, is one who accomplishes the tasks and keeps working match after match. It is a robot that is efficient in design, elegant in it's use of the parts provided, and just plain cool to see. To paraphase a famous judge, Quality is not something I can really define, but I know it when I see it.