Girls are still undermined?

[C.Roberts 1089]

Neha's already heard this, but I'll post so everyone else can see what she's talking about.

Though I absolutely adore my team, they are a bit disrespectful at times. I'm friends with a lot of members of other teams, mostly through Corey Balint (25). We're the "chat kids" - we have chats just about every night so we can all catch up with each other and whatnot. Basically, acknowledging these people and other random people that approach me at competitions has gotten me the reputation for being a flirt. In reality, I'm a hyper kid that's just extremely friendly. I don't really mind being called a flirt. But it's now been taken to another level.

An occasional joke was okay, that's all well and good. But I've even just recently gotten comments such as "Take off your shirt and go stand on the corner, we need more people to come" (at a car wash we held last weekend). That's just degrading and rude. It may have been a joke, but I didn't find it too funny, especially since it was delivered with a condescending smile. The weekend before, at a fair for the town my school is in, one of the other girls on my team, who I happen to be good friends with, interrupted me while I was doing PR [we had our bot there, I was explaining to parents & kids alike about our robot and about FIRST], and called me over, saying "Carli, could you hold these oreos and stand in front of the tent? We need more people to buy them, and you're the hot one." Well, I was flattered by the compliment, but I'd trade being considered 'hot' for being taken seriously any day.

During build last year, every time I asked to help do something, I was told that people "didn't have time" to teach me, or that I "didn't know anything" and I should go back to doing 'other stuff'. Which brings me to another situation where a new male member of the team (joined end of school last year) commented to myself and a few other girls on the team that we should "go back to making up weird things to make us look like freaks at competitions" and "stop worrying about important things" because we didn't know anything about them, or something of the sort. What he was referring to is the fact that we're all involved in spirit and PR and such - in fact, I'm chair of Events Planning [PR, Outreach, Fundraising], one of the others is chair of Media, and the third the chair of Spirit. We earned our positions. But we do plenty more for the team as well, and we'd do even more if people didn't prevent us from doing it.

They criticize us for 'not knowing enough' yet won't teach us. So all of a sudden it's our fault that we weren't raised with a background in engineering? That we became interested in it along the way and wanted to learn? Well excuse us, we should've known better than to think girls had a place in technology. I've gotten (and still get) tons of other comments about this, year-round.. It's pretty frustrating. Now, I know that many of the comments that are made are in jest, which is fine.. I can take a joke just fine. But when it comes down to saying things that are downright cruel and crossing the line, it's not fun and games anymore. I also know that not all teams are like this. I mean, I do love my team. I just wish that they would understand that I'm not here just to look cute, that I want to learn, and though I do contribute to everything else, I want to have my hands on the robot too.

I don't want to just write chairman's, and plan events, and make cheers, wave posters. Sure, that's all fun. But I'm interested in the robot and it's mechanics, too. But I can't learn, and I never will know very much, unless someone teaches me. If i get blown off every time I ask, I make no progress. And that's not gracious professionalism. It's not a real team. I don't care what the result is, if everyone can't work together and help each other out, it's not as valuable as if the team unites. Excuse the long post, guys. Just had a lot to say on the topic =p. Ask for clarification if you need it, please don't be offended by anything, have a good day =). And please treat your teammates with respect.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

my point is: is it reasonable to expect the ratio to be 50:50?

If you look at the present situation, and from your perspective you think it should be 50:50, and that makes you upset or angry, or it pushes you work towards making it 50:50, are you looking at things realistically?

Im only raising the question. What should the ratio be?

I have no idea what it should be. I was only comparing to non engineering focused colleges, where the ratio is much closer to 50:50 or even skewed in favor of women.

[KenWittlief]

Originally Posted by C.Roberts 1089

...
They criticize us for 'not knowing enough' yet won't teach us. ...

...But I can't learn, and I never will know very much, unless someone teaches me. If i get blown off every time I ask, I make no progress.

I hope this has been your experience with other students, and none of this has come from mentors!

I assume your team is broken up along functional lines. Is there any reason why you cant be on the drive train, or electrical, or other mechanical design part of the team this year?

From my experience as a mentor, very few students really knew what they were doing when they jumped to a new subteam at the start of the build season. It was mostly up to the mentors to show them what needed to be done, show them how, get them started, and then stand back and let the students run with it.

[dubious elise]

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

my point is: is it reasonable to expect the ratio to be 50:50?

If you look at the present situation, and from your perspective you think it should be 50:50, and that makes you upset or angry, or it pushes you work towards making it 50:50, are you looking at things realistically?

Im only raising the question. What should the ratio be?

I say no ratio. Those that are interested should pursue their desires, rather than being handed a special incentive to make things "equal" when their skill levels may not be as high as the next applicant or participant.

But that is off topic entirely. My apologies.

On our team, we have one female mentor that always encourages the girls, especially the new ones, to listen carefully to the discussions and instructions, then grab the boys' tools and push them out of the way to show that they can do it too. Its a bit of a rough theory, but it works

I've never particularly had a firm spot on our team. My first year was largely animation, logo design, and, during competition season, photographing, scouting, and following Ricky. Last year, I was the human player, led some of the team meetings, painted the frame, and helped out with fundrasing and publicity as much as I was able. Both years, I picked up fairly random skills, one day I would work with 3DS Max, the next I would be welding, or soldering, or machining gearboxes, or assembling gearboxes, or using the plasma cutter, or organizing the nuts/bolts drawers.

This year, I've been working with our new FLL team and I have noticed an odd thing. Whenever the 7 boys get very involved in one aspect of the game, the 3 girls automatically withdraw to working on their research projects. The other two girls that mentor with me can't seem to get the younger girls to be quite so involved in the building process as they were for the first 2-3 weeks.

Maybe it is the lack of structure, girls want to work from a plan, guys want to freehand a project and see where it goes...I don't really have a concrete answer. What I can say is that the more passionate a girl is about a certain aspect of the team (and yes, this holds true for guys as well), the more respect she will gain from her peers and the more opportunities she will have within the team. Don't withdraw. Don't hold back. FIRST is a no-holds-barred opportunity. It is up to the students to make the most of their magnificent chance.

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by C.Roberts 1089

They criticize us for 'not knowing enough' yet won't teach us. So all of a sudden it's our fault that we weren't raised with a background in engineering? That we became interested in it along the way and wanted to learn? Well excuse us, we should've known better than to think girls had a place in technology.

Carli brings up a great point. Too often, girls get left behind on FIRST teams because during the crunch of the 6 week build, people don't have enough time to teach.

Here's the problem. In general, less girls take tech courses in high school. Also, boys are more likely to develop hands on technical skills outside of school then girls are. So, a girl who joins a FIRST team, hoping to learn about engineering, is often pushed aside because she lacks these skills. When it comes to build season, FIRST teams rely on the students who can get things done quickly. So the manufacturing jobs are assigned to those who already have the appropriate skill set. In this case, it happens to be the guys. This is no good for the girls who want to be a part of this process. Now, they've been pushed aside and marginalized.

How do we fix this problem? Well, it's not simple. During the 6 week build, there often isn't time to teach hands on skills. But that's what the other 46 weeks of year are for. FIRST is a year long program. Teams need to concentrate on skills development for those who are lacking, but wanting to learn.

This year, one of our mentors Stephanie Thompson, has developed an action plan to get more girls involved with NiagaraFIRST.org. What I've outlined above are her hypotheses. The main point of action, is to set up a program whereby the girls on the team can develop "shop skills". Basically, it's an all girls program, where the girls can learn the basics about working in the shop. This way, when the build season starts, they'll be much more ready to jump in. By having it be an all girls workshop, the girls can participate and ask questions, without having to worry about being looked down on by more shop-seasoned guys.

I urge all teams to try this approach in these next few months before kickoff. It will ensure better participation, and you'll have that many more skilled workers come build season. We all know how crucial extra sets of skilled hands are for the 6 week crunch.

(BTW, These types of workshops aren't just applicable for girls. There are tonnes of guys out there with keen minds for robot design, who lack shop-skills. These guys are intimidated and pushed out of build roles in the same way girls are. Workshops like these would be great for them as well.)

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Karthik

Carli brings up a great point. Too often, girls get left behind on FIRST teams because during the crunch of the 6 week build, people don't have enough time to teach.

While everything you've said is dead on with respect to girls, it also often holds true with freshmen/first year members.

[sciguy125]

I found some interesting statistics, at least for my school.

Distribution of Student Majors by Gender and Ethnicity
Engineering
Science
Applied Sciences & Arts
Social Work
University Total

Note that in engineering and science, the gender bias disappears in graduate students. Well, for the college totals at least; some of the majors are still biased.

The engineering majors (undergraduate) with the smallest biases are chemical and industrial systems. The most biased ones are mechanical and computer.

As for science, I was right about there being a large bias toward women in biology, but chemistry was close to even.

There are 3 times as many women in chemistry than chemical engineering. Oddly, computer science is 23% women, but computer engineering is only 14%.

Excluding biology, the College of Science is 29.6% women (39% with biology). The College of Engineering is 16.3% women. 70.1% women in the College of Applied Sciences and Arts. In total, San Jose State University is 50.6% women.


If you want to comb through other data, you can find an index of all the tables here.

[KenWittlief]

Originally Posted by Karthik

... Too often, girls get left behind on FIRST teams because during the crunch of the 6 week build, people don't have enough time to teach.

...When it comes to build season, FIRST teams rely on the students who can get things done quickly. So the manufacturing jobs are assigned to those who already have the appropriate skill set.

This post flags some of the most common problems that FIRST teams encounter - the traps we fall into.

1. When you start thinking FIRST is a robotics competition, you forget we are here to show students what a career in engineering and science will be like. When building a better robot is more important than giving a student exposure to new skills and career insight, the train has jumped the tracks and is plowing mud.

The answer to this problem is not easy. As mentors we often have to reject great robot ideas because they are too complex, and students would not be able to implement them in 6 weeks. Very often we have simplified our design so the students, new unskilled students, would be able to handle the tasks. Some of our robots turned out mediocre, but our students turned out excellent.

2. Engineering is NOT manufacturing. I say this repeatedly every year, but many teams fall into the trap of thinking engineers are machinists and wiring technicians. Engineering is the design part, figuring out what the machine will do, and how it will do it. Building the machine (in the real world) is a process of the engineers producing drawings, and machinists fabricating the parts, and usually technicians assembling them. It is good to be able to fabricate things with your own hands, but thats not what engineers do.

in fact, I always feel very uncomfortable if I have to man a drill press, or solder circuit boards, or assemble prototypes at work, because that is not what Im being paid to do. In a pinch I can, but if Im doing fabrication and assembly work all day long something is seriously wrong with the project!

[Eugenia Gabrielov]

I am not going to be an Engineer when I grow up.
I am going to be a doctor.

I don't know very much about fabrication of parts, manufacture, etc.
I am always happy to discuss design.

I did not do Public Relations my first year because I was a girl.
I did Public Relations because I write well and I organize well.

I agree with Elise. There is no appropriate ratio, there is no set mark. Because of my team, I will be an Engineering major. That change in interest from some random science to Engineering major happened over the course of my Junior year. I never consciously said "I want to switch." I realized it gradually, as I met people from other teams and worked with them. I realized it as I met Engineers, I realized it as I understood the message of this program.

FIRST does not mean "For Inspiration and Recognition of Working in the Machine Shop." It means, "For Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology." One half of that statement is science, and I love science. 3/7 of my classes this semester are hardcore science.

I leave you with one message:
Do not try to put me behind a drill press because I am a girl and unadvantaged.
Do not assume that I am planning to pursue a career in humanities just because I have fun with PR and the activities that come with it.

Teach me to be an Engineer. I am ambitious, I am willing, but I am interested in the S in FIRST, not as much in the T. That's personal preference. We're different. That's fine. We can still work together.

- Genia

[ChrisH]

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

2. Engineering is NOT manufacturing.

in fact, I always feel very uncomfortable if I have to man a drill press, or solder circuit boards, or assemble prototypes at work, because that is not what Im being paid to do. In a pinch I can, but if Im doing fabrication and assembly work all day long something is seriously wrong with the project!

How true! Same here in a different area. I work in Composites. If I'm doing layup something is seriously wrong or our techs are too busy. If I'm bagging parts it is because the techs couldn't figure out how to do it. Which means it must be really hard or somebody screwed up in the design phase.

[OZ_341]

We feel one of our missions is to provide new experiences for every kid on our team. On our team we don't let anyone stay in their comfort zone for long, boy or girl.

We have many girls on our build and drive teams. Why??

When a girl on our team says, I would rather not drill holes or drive a robot.

Guess what they are doing next meeting!

After that they can logically decide if they would rather build or do something else like promotions or art work.

Thats one way we make it happen on our team.

[Barry Bonzack]

As always, any student on a team that does a job whether it be work on the robot or work away from the robot is still very much part of the team. We try to get the art club involved on the team... mostly girls doing mostly artsy things, but there is nothing wrong with that as Beth has said. One girl on the art club even helped out with the team animation the past two year, Fantastic. The past two years I have made attempts to get the school cheerleaders to partner with us to help show spirit at competition. UCF 05, only one of the girls came from the squad and was in the stands yelling just as much as anyone else on the team. This year she has been one of the most dedicated students on the robotics team so far. I am expecting that she will keep with it this year and even start to learn some mechanical work while also showing some interest in some of the chairman's work as well.

My point being this, Robotics is full of jobs for everyone; Come for the desk work, stay for the build.

[MChapman]

I agree that there are some people that still undermine girls in FIRST. I dont agree with the people that say mechanical stuff is for the guys on the team, an the spirit stuff is for the girls! That's not what were here for! We're here to work together on things, as a team, an a team should be doing stuff together. Any girl, whether she is a cheerleader, or dancer on a team can get involved with the mechanics. I know i'm more of the spirited type of girl on my team an want to dance at competitions an i do, but i also get involved with the desgin phase and mechanics. My team allows that, granted some of our older engineers dont like it, because we dont have much expierence, but i'm willing to share the knowledge that i have with them, if they are willing to share their knowledge with me. As of last year i was starting to get involved with the desgin an build team by weighing the robot parts, making prototypes, and even coming up with ideas for our robot desgin. I enjoy the mechanics in FIRST an i'm only willing to learn more. I even get involved with chairman's and the animation, i want to go into web desgin as my major, and it sounds like so much fun. But for those people that dont approve of that really should change their minds about letting girls do work in the shop. They are just as capable as doing anything guys are doing. I would like to see the girls out there that want to be given the chance to work in a shop an have people be proud of what they accomplished, it means a lot to someone.

[C.Roberts 1089]

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

I hope this has been your experience with other students, and none of this has come from mentors!

I assume your team is broken up along functional lines. Is there any reason why you cant be on the drive train, or electrical, or other mechanical design part of the team this year?

The mentors have not been biased, though occasionally one of them has some rude and sexist comments. He's always joking though, and we know that though it's sometimes offensive anyway. However, if I ask him to explain something to me, he always does, if he can. The problem is, sometimes anyway, that the mentors are willing to help but simply don't have the time. They're juggling their own jobs outside of FIRST, or the student mentors are trying to deal with the pressures of college, and when they're there they just don't have as much time for that kind of stuff. As far as I'm concerned, it's more the job of the upperclassmen to teach younger students what they don't know. But I'm a junior now - my third year on the team - and I still haven't learned very much about the actual building and such. There really isn't a reason why I can't be on the drive train, or electrical, or mechanical design 'part' of the team... except that I'm just not qualified. That's my goal for this year, is to be involved in all of that. And be able to do it myself. Without other people telling me, "Okay, now connect the red here to the red there, and then this black to that black." I want to understand what I'm doing, not just do it. And that requires knowing some things in advance.

Originally Posted by Karthik

Here's the problem. In general, less girls take tech courses in high school.

Problem at my highschool is that we don't really offer any tech courses for anyone. We used to have a metal shop, but it got cut from the budget long ago. The only courses I really found that were at all similar to robotics were programming courses, which I considered but wasn't sure I was ready to take on this year with the rest of my (pretty heavy) workload.

Originally Posted by Cory

While everything you've said is dead on with respect to girls, it also often holds true with freshmen/first year members.

I noticed that while I was posting the first time. Most freshmen don't get quite as much verbal abuse though. But that's what it's like for a lot of the girls - being like freshmen interminably.

And to comment on what Genia said, don't get me wrong, I do thoroughly enjoy doing writing and PR and organizing for the team, and I'm good at it... I'd just like to do more. I'm not saying every girl does, but if they do, they should be encouraged.

And finally, to Oz, that's an awesome policy you guys have. That's exactly the type of attitude that's perfect for FIRST. Congratulations =).

[KenWittlief]

Originally Posted by C.Roberts 1089

... But I'm a junior now - my third year on the team - and I still haven't learned very much about the actual building and such. There really isn't a reason why I can't be on the drive train, or electrical, or mechanical design 'part' of the team... except that I'm just not qualified. ....

Im wondering how many engineers you have on your team, because you seem to be focused on the building and tool/wrench stuff.

Nobody at your HS is qualified to be an engineer, unless they went to college for 4 years and then decided they wanna do HS again?

Many people have the mistaken impression that engineering is building stuff. Engineering happens between your ears. Engineering is:

1. you are presented with a problem that needs to be solved
2. you clearly define what the problem is (why the task needs to be done, and what the task is)
3. then you figure out how to best solve the problem - the most effecient and elegant way to provide a solution

the rest is all nuts and bolts stuff, trivial really compaired to 1-3 above.

For example, my daughter was on a FIRST team for 3 years, and for a technology class she participated in something they called the 'sumo car competition'. Each team had two students, they were given motors and gears and some basic parts, and they had to build a small car like vehicle.

the competiton took place on a 5' diameter round table. Two teams played against each other for 60 seconds. The team that was closest to the center at the end won. Kind of a king of the hill (table) pushing contest.

Every other team at her school, and in this part of the state immediately latched onto the 'pushing contest' aspect, and designed cars with drive trains that were geared way down, big high traction tires or tank treads, and a plow or bush-wacker on the front.

My daughter did not have all these preconceived notions, had taken advanced physics, and looked at how much energy the little motor and batteries they had to use could produce? Not much it turns out. If you are head to head with someone else, all the energy you have is what you can draw from the motor/battery

but she knew about kinetic energy and momentum. Her team designed a car that was fast, geared up, and the front was shaped like a wedge.

At the HS competition all the other matches consisted of two opponents starting at opposite sides of the table, slowly going after each other, pushing and shoving for 60 seconds, and the one with the best traction usually held the center of the table. The first match she played, she hit the switches at T=0, her car flew across the table in about 2 seconds, smacked the other car and sent it flying to the floor. All the other students had a jaw-dropping experience.

Her team won at the HS competition, and they won at the upstate competition. Every match she played lasted about 2 seconds.

The point is, engineering is all about the concept. If you grab the kit of parts right after the kickoff and start building something, you are doomed.

And being creative and thinking out of the box very often comes from girls, because all of this is new to them, and they dont have any preconceived notions about how a robot should function.