Girls are still undermined?

[tiffany34990]

there is always going to be this problem. we try so hard to get other girls involved but it is up to them. you can push someone so much but it depends on them to be active and do something.. we started the RCU to help inspire girls to be in science, math and technology related fields but we support them in any direction they take while being in FIRST and in life...

some like me love to work on the machines and build the robot...others like Beth and Genia said like working on the paperwork, public relations things. it is up to the indivual.

but yes machining and engineering are not the same.
the issue with girls not knowing the tools is an issue i know, that's why my mother developed Girls Camp. It is a program just for girls to learn how to use the tools and some machines. There aren't any guys to be there as "pressure". i was the lead machinest for the past 2 years. my mentor actually told me at times he rather have some girls because of the fine details we pay attention to. girls and guys can do the same thing. the guys might be stronger for example but i always found a way to solve that problem w/ making sure things were tight on the machine. now i had to stand on a chair all the time when switching out the chucks on the Bridgeport back in S.P.A.M.'s pit but that's okay.

i sit in class everyday with not many girls because yes i'm studying engineering. mechanical engineering to be exact. my engineering chemistry lab has only 2 girls in there and the rest are 20 guys. the ratio is small. but the ratio is changing.

but i just have to say do what you want to do..if it's something related to engineering and working in the pit go for it. i know at times girls can be shy about it all. at first i will say was intimidate by all the guys but at the time S.P.A.M. was a very small team when i first started and the mentors were really nice and upperclassman and showed me things. last year i tried to get girls on our team to be on the machines they didn't want to..i didn't pressure them because i know at times pressuring becomes discouraging..they will learn when/if they want to.

each team will face this problem. how they overcome it is different. there will always be those people that think girls should be at home taking care of the kids. some families have the mom working and the dad at home. it's is the way our society is. things are changing slowly but it takes time. older generations still influence us a bit. it is also how we have grown up and what we are exposed to. as my old math teacher once said it's the sterotype...girls generally get dolls to play and the guys get truck and blocks. as a young child as studies shown these affect us...our motor skills, what we like and what we dislike... some have the insight to the way things works other just perhaps know what it looks like or not....

but all and all... girls can do anything...and so can guys. if guys want to be in fashion design and sew well by all means go for it...if a girl wants to build a car..go for it too...

everyone just do what you want to do and believe in yourself...good luck to everyone in life...

i hope more girls do end up in engineering and working in the pits but if they don't want to do that..it's all good to me...

[Kims Robot]

I first want to say this is a great thread, and some really great comments on it.

Wow, its a lot to digest too. We did come to the hypothesis that it is too late to interest girls in science & technology in high school (at least in terms of recruiting). That it must be done in that pre-teen phase discussed earlier, where girls are influenced by what other girls are doing. So we started an all girls lego league team.

I also do know of a girl who was told by her teacher that he wanted her to "help with the spirit and organizing the team" and to not work on the robot. That completely disgusted me. I tell everyone on our team that they can work on or try anything they want. We havent come far enough to enforce that EVERYONE try everything, but last year, every other team meeting was a sort of seminar on either, electrical, mechanical, CAD, programming, etc... so everyone got a little exposure to a lot of it.

The cool thing on our team is that last year, the ENTIRE leadership team of mentors was female. I was the team leader, our teacher was a female and past industrial engineer, our second in command was a female electrical engineer like myself. So I think we formed some pretty good role models

However, I will take the other side of the fence for a minute, and say that most females are more creative and more organized than the guys. (Im NOT saying guys arent creative or organized, its just both a genetic & environmentally induced thing). And in the real world of engineering/business most top executives are male... this is generally from the motherly instinct. Society & nature has deamed the mothers the caregivers and the fathers the breadwinners. Its the same in many animals as well.

The other thing that females have to deal with is that once out of high school it is much easier to get into college & to get a job as female engineers. However, once they start taking classes or working, its often the reverse that happens. Many people will think they either "just got in because they are girls" or "don't belong in the profession." Ive dealt with both situations. Both are incredibly discouraging.

Even with me, while I love engineering, getting hands on and knowing the technical, I also tend to be better at organizing things than many guys in my department. That is why they asked me to be key recruiter (not because HR is a girl thing, but because my boss called me "the most organized person he had ever met" *if he could only see my office right now! lol*).

I guess in the end, my thought would be that we should ALWAYS encourage the girls (and new students) to try everything. Even if they dont like it, at least they tried it. I wont ever physically drag a girl away from the spirit team because girls should "do more than spirit," though. Because in the end, the FIRST experience isnt just about the robot. Inspiration can be in many areas, it can be in engineering, but it can also be in leadership, organization, finance, business, etc! FIRST builds "the leaders of tomorrow" not just the "engineers of tomorrow."

So every girl should have the same opportunities and encouragement as every guy does.

[KenWittlief]

Ive usually been on the electical team as a mentor, but Ive always been close friends with the mechanical engineers on the team, and theres a couple things we have observed over the years.

Guys are more likely to have mechanical experience. They are more likely to take their bicycles apart when they are kids, tinker with lawn mower engines, help dad change the oil in the car, and get all that black grease and oil all over them. Thats just the way things are in our culture.

But heres the thing: guys learn a lot of bad habits this way, they are more likely to use brute force on something, they are more likely to grab a hand drill when they should be using a drill press, more likely to wack a bearing with a hammer when they should be using an arbor press

but girls on FIRST teams, who work on the mechanical subteams, have to learn most things from scratch, and as a result, they learn from the mentors how to do things right. Metal fabrication in a shop is done with power tools, powerfull machines that have motors up to 10HP. You dont force a professional machine tool, you need a light touch on the controls. If a bit is dull a guy is more likely to pull on the handle with both hands (and bugger up the work), while a girl is more likely to take the bit and get it sharpened.

There is absolutely no doubt that girls can do excellent machine shop work. We tend to forget what happend from 1940 to 1945, when most of the men in the US went off to war, and the women stepped up to the plate, and built the tanks and jeeps and aircraft that won the war.

So ironically, if girls on the team are willing to overcome the fear of trying something new, the fear of messing things up, they often end up being better machinists than the guys, because they are learning to do things the right way, and they dont have the attitude of "I all ready know how to use powertools..."

and BTW, when you work on old cars and bikes and motors you get all dirty and greasy, but when you fabricate new machine parts in a shop, everything is shiney and clean and new. I love the smell of machine oil in the morning :^)

[C.Roberts 1089]

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

Im wondering how many engineers you have on your team, because you seem to be focused on the building and tool/wrench stuff.

None, as a matter of fact. We've got a team parent who is a tile guy, but quite handy, and we've got a machinist that volunteers to help us out as well. Personally, I love it this way. The kids get far more input from what I can tell - I've heard many stories about how engineers, especially when provided by sponsors, will take over a robot and make it their own, instead of belonging to the kids on the team. I like that my team becomes more innovative and thrifty with random parts because we don't have engineers to help us make things perfect and such. We learn the hard way, but I'd say overall we learn a whole lot more. The problem to me is, that when I say 'we,' I mean those who are actually participating in building the robot. Which unfortunately, at the moment, does not include myself. Or any girls, really.

[Pat Chen]

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

Guys are more likely to have mechanical experience. They are more likely to take their bicycles apart when they are kids, tinker with lawn mower engines, help dad change the oil in the car, and get all that black grease and oil all over them. Thats just the way things are in our culture.

Yes...it is the way in our culture but it doesn't have to be. When I was young...I took everything apart. It was years later when I told my parents what I did with their electrical equipment. The difference was....when I took it apart....I put the pieces on the floor the way I dismantled things...thus...I was able to put things back together and no one knew. I am sure that I was not the only girl who was doing the same thing.

Again...yes it is our culture....as educated adults...do we have to permeate this? It is up to us to change things. Viva la revolucion!

Originally Posted by tiffany34990

girls generally get dolls to play and the guys get truck and blocks. as a young child as studies shown these affect us...our motor skills, what we like and what we dislike... some have the insight to the way things works other just perhaps know what it looks like or not....

What Tiffany wrote is correct....there is a Harry Chapin song...."boys are taught to reach for the sky....girls are taught to reach as high as the cupboard...." these lyrics has been very influential when I was raising my kids....Barbie dolls and dance classes were banned from Tiffany's wish list and extra-curricular activities...now LEGO's, Brio's and truck..oh my..oh yeah were accepted....she did not get her first doll house until first grade...yes I know...bad mom....depriving her of the influence of the gender stereotyping.

[nehalita]

Originally Posted by Pat Chen

Yes...it is the way in our culture but it doesn't have to be. When I was young...I took everything apart. It was years later when I told my parents what I did with their electrical equipment. The difference was....when I took it apart....I put the pieces on the floor the way I dismantled things...thus...I was able to put things back together and no one knew. I am sure that I was not the only girl who was doing the same thing.

That reminds me, I used to fear the "girl" stereotype so I used to secretly steal my dad's toolbox and lock myself up in a room to take apart my table/chair set over and over. It was the only thing I could take apart without my parents noticing but I think they noticed anyway and didn't mind.

Also, not to say that there's anything wrong with them, but I stopped playing Barbie's around the age of 4 or 5. They bored me because I couldn't do anything with them (actually thinking back, I don't think I ever did play with them...I got yelled at for neglecting them and not bothering to put their clothes on...too tedious...). Instead I enjoyed Lego's, the computer, and my keyboard. Those were the fine days...

To add to some of the issues brought up here. I definitely agree that workshops are beneficial. But as Ken brought up, a lot of engineering has to do with the though process. It'd be nice to encourage everyone to bring up their ideas and be assertive. I understand that all these qualities are not inborn but we live in a nature AND nurture environment. It can be cultivated. This isn't just a girl issue but I think it happens a lot with girls because they are afraid of being knocked down by boys because...well it's majority versus minority.

Also I would like to point out that many people felt that "it just wasn't a women's thing" to do humanity jobs and then science related and math related...but slowly that changed. I'm not insinuating that the same WILL happen with engineering but it's possible. In due time, we will see whether it's a gender schema or not. I personally feel it's the skills that are shown that make a difference. Girls have attain these skills or simply have them just as much as boys can. Those that agree, I'm glad, those that do not, well...we'll see =).

[Michael Hill]

I think this used to be a problem with the TechnoKats. I think girls think that robitics is such a "guy's thing" that they don't want to deal with it. I'm glad to see that there have been a few girls on our team that have challenged that predisposition. The Technokats have "Girls nights at the shop" where there are no boys allowed except for adults. And this Wednesday (I believe) we will have local girl scout troops come to our shop. I think it's a great thing our team is doing to try to get girls interested. I think it's sad that robotics seems to be mainly guys.

[Ellery]

Well all I can add to this thread is if you let them participate and give everyone the opportunity they will learn. Gender should not be a criteria of differentiation. Our team has always had a pretty good 50:50 split between male and female but that is by design since our team motto has always veiwed diversity as a strong point and gender so happens to be one of those metrics. We will always try to give the students their first choice of interest but if we beleive that a particular student would benefit being in a particular role we'll encourage them to try it out.

Every year I find a student that I will tend to mentor more just because he/she is willing to take the initiative to work with me. If they are willing to invest their time with me I will in return do all I can do to help them achieve the most out of this program.

Team members with initiative would prove to be best value you can have on a team.

Ellery

[DUCKIE]

I've already read through countless posts like this since I joined FIRST ~6 years ago.... and I feel the same way now as I did then. (and this goes for guys and girls)

The only way you can be undermined is if you let yourself be undermined.

Talking and hoping others will help you won't always get you where you want. If you want something... go for it. Be persistant and you will get your chance. (ie-The Little Engine That Could)

(Also, you will appreciate and learn from the experience all the more because you had to work for it and it wasn't just given to you on a silver platter.)

[Al Skierkiewicz]

I hope we are doing things right. We had an all female electrical team last year and many were returning members. The mentors on the team try to watch over each other's shoulder to make sure things are fairly distributed and all members are treated equally. I know that we might slip once in a while but we encourage females on the team to do whatever they want. The CDI event that took place was an all female team, and those girls learned everything about the robot and shocked their parents that they were using power tools and were helping other teams at the competition.

[Denman]

Last year we had 4 girls. One of them was team capitan but tended more towards the chairmans etc sides out of choice along with another of the girls., another was a whizz at cad and graphics stuff, and did a lot of stuff for other things including welding and cutting etc, not so much on the first bot but on our other things like the featherweight competition. Then finally there was one girl who would do just about anything she could, more towards the bui;lding side. we tended to let people do what they wanted as long as they did something.

[Liz C]

Originally Posted by Pat Chen

Again...yes it is our culture....as educated adults...do we have to permeate this? It is up to us to change things.

I completely agree with this. Because society tends to impede girls' ability to gain appreciation for fields/realms,that are otherwise considered "just for guys" (e.g. Tiffany's example that girls are introduced to gender-stereotyping at a young age, with their playthings), the only way to reverse this is to disprove these misconceptions and encourage and empower girls. What better place to do so than in FIRST?

Originally Posted by Koko Ed

When we recruits kids one requirement to being an X-Cat is you have to do one year working on the robot. Boy or girl. NO EXCEPTIONS.

I think such a policy is very helpful in preventing members from dismissing a certain aspect of the team based on their own generalizations. I know from personal experience and from recruiting in my school, that a little support and a push in that direction goes a long way.

Though I can't share an opinion about being undermined by a fellow member of the team, I can my experience as a member on an all girls team: If we did not provide an effort to encourage all members when it comes to working on the robot, we might not have many girls that are currently on the team (myself included); paired with the fact that they're are no boys on our team anyway, our teams existence would be questionable

[melon38]

we've had both kinds of girls on my team - the kind that are actually working on the robot, and the kind that do clerical work or team spirit stuff. Most of the girls on the team now are more spiriters than workers. There are only maybe 9 or 10 girls that are on our team of 50+. Out of the 5 senior girls, I'm the only one to have ever even taken a tech class. Girls have always been in the minority on our team. We've never had a female president (captain). That's just the way things worked out. We don't take the role that we do because we are girls. There are plenty of guys on our team that are more team oriented than robot oriented. There's nothing wrong with that, no matter what gender you are. Our girls choose the parts they play on our team. You all seem to be thinking that it's a bad thing to be more on the spirit side of things, but that is a crucial part of any team. My team, team 174, did well both on and off of the field last season. We came in 6th place and won the team spirit award at the Buckeye Regional. Not every girl wants to be a driver or a programmer. On our team it's a choice. Personally, I'd rather be the mascot again than working in the pit.

[Wayne C.]

Originally Posted by DUCKY

The only way you can be undermined is if you let yourself be undermined.

Talking and hoping others will help you won't always get you where you want. If you want something... go for it. Be persistant and you will get your chance. (ie-The Little Engine That Could)

Ditto-

I am tired of having guys get the bad rap simply because they are guys. If you step up and make a place for yourself on the team nobody can stand in your way. But nobody is owed anything and it takes a little assertion. I'd rather see a hard working team of all girls than a bunch of useless boys any day.

WC

Grr!

[sciencenerd]

Originally Posted by Pat Chen

when I was raising my kids....Barbie dolls and dance classes were banned from Tiffany's wish list and extra-curricular activities...

My opinion is everyone should be given choice, girls or boys. Girls should be allowed to play with dolls or legos, whatever interests them. Guys should be able to play with dolls or legos too. Taking away the choices children already have is not the same as giving them new ones. You wouldn't forbid your son from playing with legos and force him to play with dolls just because boys are (in our culture, at least) less interested in them, would you?

EDIT: Fixed a simple grammatical error