Restrictive Environment From School

[Steve W]

I MUST agree with Dave. Before I had even finished reading the post I was getting ready to respond. It seems that some here feel that it is OK to do what they wish as long as it suits their needs. Some of these people are the same ones that say GP is alive and well and that teams should be trusted to follow the rules and given the benefit of the doubt.

When ever someone trusts us with their property we should handle that property better that we would our own. On our team I have been loaned some laptops. I was given permission to erase the hard drives and put what ever I want on them. I must return them with the same operating system on them when they were given to me. The team has been instructed to make sure that the laptops are locked up at all times. These are conditions that were given to me at the time they were loaned. I even use my work laptop with a few more restrictions. We as a team are thankful for what we have been entrusted with and we don't want to lose the privilege of using these laptops.

To encourage someone to "break the rules" is NEVER a good solution. We should always work within the rules and not look for ways to "legally" break them.

[GeorgeTheEng]

Originally Posted by dlavery

Wow. This is possibly one of the most inappropriate and ill-conceived pieces of advice I have seen on these forums in quite a while.

While I can't disagree with Dave, I think he is missing an even bigger issue. Not only could the school punish the offending students, but you are potentially committing crimes that could have very serious consequences.

If you talk to your IT folks and can't get anywhere, contact Paul Kloberg and I know he'll help. Contact other teams in your area and see if you can someone to demo thier robot to the powers that be and emphasize the importance of being able to program the robot to do what it does. If that doesn't work, go to that administration.

At that point, there are still a few options. Find someone to donate/lend a laptop. Work at home and find someone that can lend a laptop long enough to download code. Find a local team that will let you borrow thier laptop. Finally, if absolutely necessary, go to the parents and sponsors, explain the situation and have them go to the school board.

[Mike]

As far as the legality of doing what was suggested by Rickertsen, I point you to the Klutztown incident.

Basically, the Klutztown school district issued iBooks to all high school students. Naturally, they had a lot of restrictions. However, the password they had used for the administration system was written on every single serial number label (on the bottom of the iBook.) Naturally, about 80-100 students abused this and removed all administration software from their iBooks.

These students were charged with Computer Trespassing (a third-degree felony) and were suspended/expelled from school. Whether or not the punishment fit the crime, i'm out of my jurisdiction to decide. After a flood of media came in questioning the school board, the charges were eventually dropped. To be honest, I think the school district should've been charged with Criminal Negligence if the students were charged...

Couple links about it
Local news article about Klutztown Computer Scandal
Slashdot | Felony Charges For H.S. Hacking
Slashdot | Klutztown Students get Felony Charges
Slashdot | Charges Against High School Hackers Dropped

[BrianBSL]

In the end, you aren't really any worse off than any other team, but I understand that it sucks to have the technology right there in front of you, but not be able to use it. (As most other teams likely don't have school provided PC's) Like others have said, you really only need 1 PC to actually program. As long as you can use notepad on your school laptops, you can write the code there and then transfer it to an old pc that has mplab, c18, and ifiloader to actually program. You won't get the syntax highlighting that mplab provides, but you aren't missing much there.

[meaubry]

Notice to all posters -
DO NOT recommend solutions that even come close to borderline illegal activities on this forum sight. (No debating what is and isn't illegal - it doesn't belong here on our websight)
Please provide ONLY appropriate responses and behaviors to all situations discussed here. There are many alternative solutions that do not include some of the things I have read in this thread!
As always, those that wish to offer positive suggestions are always welcome, those that choose the alternative - are not.

Mike Aubry
Team 47
Engineering Lead

[dubious elise]

Originally Posted by GeorgeTheEng

Not only could the school punish the offending students, but you are potentially committing crimes that could have very serious consequences.

Dave and George, thank you very much for your comments.

Our school district has been set up the same way for the past two years as a district-wide punishment for a crime that was committed with one of the school computers. Though we do not have the privilege of laptop usage, we use the same "Novell Box" that nukem mentioned - limited programs and no Start menu.

We have obtained our own computers, via random donations of older machines from the School District and our own team members, that we use for programming. They are not connected to the district network and they are used exclusively for robotics (they are locked in a separate room during school hours).

When we need to perform operations that require extra access or usage of a Start menu, we are usually able to work out an agreement between either a teacher (since their accounts allow for normal desktop operation and a greater variety of program usage) or the school's technology resource guru (in the form of a separate computer usage agreement resulting in modified account settings for an account). If we cannot get approval either way, the operation is left out or performed on the students' own computers at home.

We do not want to take risks with our school district. Because we are present at the school so often after normal operation hours and on weekends, we are often blamed for mishaps and occurances that are beyond our own control (setting off alarms in other parts of the school, leaving classroom doors that are not a part of our workspace unlocked, etc). Obviously, all of these are security concerns and someone has to be blamed, though we usually take these accusations with a grain of salt - making sure to cross all of our own "t"s and dot all of our own "i"s whenever we are working.

It is the same with the computer system. The incident in a programming class at our school sparked an enormous, district-wide response involving suspensions and heavily increased computer restrictions. All I ask is that you think before you act. If Mr. Lavery wouldn't be proud of it, just don't do it at all.

[hoag]

You should really talk to the IT people at your school. If they really won't change any of your settings, ask if you can borrow a loaner laptop with modified settings only for robotics. (If they have them).

My school has a laptop program that started back in the late 90's. It's a voluntary program (but like 90% of the school participates). Everyone has IBM thinkpads. In 10th grade, you can either buy one or make payments on it. Then when you graduate, it's yours to keep.
As for security, everyone is an administrator on their local accounts. I have a school account on the domain that I can log on to with my laptop, or any of the macs or pcs.
If your school has classroom PC's or labs, ask if you can get a robotics account for one of those. My team has our own login just for our robotics stuff.
As for punishment issues that have been brought up, my school is very strict like most are. Students get suspended for abusing the computers often. One student was even expelled last year.

Schools need to be strict. There's a lot of important information that travels across the network. If you have a computer that is connected to the network that may harm or compromise other machines, things could get bad. In my school, all of the security cameras are digital. Our fuel cell uses the network for monitoring information. Heck, even the locks for every door are controlled on the network. These things are vital to building operation; administrators don't want kids to even think about messing with them.
Many times we all get mad at our schools for being so strict, but they need to protect all of their students and staff.

Otherwise, it's great to have a laptop for robot programming. I've heard stories of my team's rookie years involving constant unplugging and moving a desktop computer around the lab. (Ouch) Talk to administrators and tech guys about getting an account on a local machine, or another machine just for programming.

[Rickertsen2]

I will admit that some of my points were inappropriate. I apologize for the confusion over my post. I would have interpreted it the same way especially considering the hostile overtone it seems to present now that I read over it. I do not support violating school policies. I think that this miscommunication stemmed from the fact that i did not think my response through and assumed that Nukem's situation is that same as that of the programming class at our school. In the case of our programming class, we had many times requested that restrictions be removed and many times received empty promises that they would. The Novell and deepfreeze password aren’t well guarded secrets at my school. They are openly known by a number of students and non IT faculty (and the IT department knows this yet takes no actions to change them. We have warned them of the danger of this). This year we approached the school administration and asked them if it would be ok we made the changes ourselves since IT failed to take action. They agreed and granted us WRITTEN PERMISSION. The IT department in our county deos not have it’s act together and is often referred to as the Idiot Technology department.

Once I started rambling off about re-flashing the BIOS I was starting to go off into a hypothetical tangent. I once bought a laptop off eBay which the seller failed to communicate had a bios password. I removed it by re-flashing the bios with an EEPROM programmer. I assumed that the people of these forums would have enough sense not to take this suggestion too seriously.

As for my last suggestion of swapping out the hard drives with one of your own, I understand that this might be against the wishes of the IT department, but it is fairly benign. By doing so, you do not circumvent any security measures and do not alter the laptop in any was as long as you put the original hard rive back before you return the laptop. Also I do not see any harm in wiping the computer as long as you make an image of it before you do so and restore the image before you give the computer back. Again I feel such extreme measures should only be used as a last result.

I am sorry for the commotion I have caused

[GeorgeTheEng]

I'd like to get back to the other point of my comments (besides the moral/legal issues) that there are other options.

While pursuing different technical approaches, I would still get someone to talk to the administration and get parents involved. Just because you can solve it this year doesn't mean next year the problem will not be there again.

On the technical side, as many people have said, the programming software runs on older machines. And other then downloading the software initially, there isn't a necessatity for a network connection. Approach one of your sponsors and ask if they have an laptops or PCs they are getting rid of. Most major companies don't actually throw stuff out, it gets stored in a warehouse. It might be old but it will do the job.

And worst case scenario, you're in NJ w/ a large number of teams, someone with a laptop from another team can come over and help you load code. Paul Kloberg will see to that (and probably ask me since I'm mentioning it :> )

BTW, I appologize if some of my other comments came off harsh. I work in the defense industry where getting around security on a computer can sometimes be considered a federal issue. Remember though, even if it is legal, you might damage the team's reputation with the school because it looks bad/sneaky/etc and that isn't good for any team.

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by Rickertsen2

As for my last suggestion of swapping out the hard drives with one of your own, I understand that this might be against the wishes of the IT department, but it is fairly benign. By doing so, you do not circumvent any security measures and do not alter the laptop in any was as long as you put the original hard rive back before you return the laptop.

I am astonished that you are defending this. Removing the software on the hard disk is circumventing the security. Removing the hard disk does alter the laptop. Taking apart a school-owned laptop can hardly be called benign.

You seem to be saying that breaking the rules is okay as long as you don't get caught. I urge you to abandon that idea immediately and start working on more constructive suggestions.

[Jay H 237]

Wow, I was about ready to put on oven mitts to handle this thread!


Now back to the original problem and a suggestion I haven't seen yet.

Has your team tried applying for any grants? We applied for a grant that allowed us to purchase not one but two brand new Compaq computers for team use only. This is an option that may work for you if you can't afford to purchase one outright and can't find anyone to donate or loan one to you. You will have to do some research to see what, if any, grants are available and the conditions to apply for them.

As Ken mentioned, Ebay is a good place also. I purchased a second laptop for myself that I basically carry around and use for robotics only. When needed I've loaned it out to the team. I paid $410 for it shipped to my door, a 650mhz Toshiba Satellite with 2000 Pro on it. It's more than enough for programming and Word, Excel and Powerpoint (we've done several presentations with it). Not something you would do gaming on but that was never the intent I had with it when I bought it anyhow.


Also just get the general word out that you're looking for a (working) laptop. You neven know, someone may be upgrading and trying to decide what to do with the old one. The holidays are coming up and I'm sure someone out there will be getting a new computer which is perfect timing for you since the "six weeks" follow the holiday season. If you're team holds 501(c)3 status then donations should be easier to come by, whether private individual or corporation.

I'm sure you'll find a solution.

Now excuse me, I have to put on the mitts and get the orange flavor Pillsbury rolls out of the oven.

[ducttapehaxor]

An interesting option not yet said by anyone is to ask the school/administration/IT department, for a completelystripped down laptop. By this I mean something without any internet connection, network connection but without the restrictive settings. This would allow the school to safegaurd themselves (it simply cannot access anything anywhere else, even if you do strange things with it). The downside to this is no internet, no network. But it's an interesting option.

Seth Lieblich

[phrontist]

This is a social problem, not a technical one. Solving a social problem is always harder than finding a way to transmute the issue into the realm of the technical.

Were I you I would use Knoppix (if you run Gentoo already, this will be a breeze). You can boot into Knoppix, which is entirely self-contained and won't even access the taxpayer's harddrive. If you search these forums you'll quickly find resources for linux FRC programming tools... just make a custom knoppix distro with these tools!

This could actually be extremely useful now that I think about it! You don't need to install any software, your code files could be stored on a USB key. You can't mess really screw anything up if you don't mount any non-volatile drives...

Tech people are happy because you aren't touching their precious harddrive, you are happy because you don't have to putter about within their comfort zone.

To all of you who are pulling the righteous indignation bit, this issue is not as cut and dry morally as I take you to be making it out to be. After all, if the taxpayer is funding incompetant IT staff that compensate through the implemenation of draconian policies hampering the education of said taxpayer's children, there is a whole chain of wrongdoing before the level of the student. That said, two wrongs certainly don't make a right and the last thing you want to do is give them a legally valid reason to make an example of you (which altering their hardware would most certainly be).

[Dave Flowerday]

Originally Posted by phrontist

After all, if the taxpayer is funding incompetant IT staff that compensate through the implemenation of draconian policies hampering the education of said taxpayer's children, there is a whole chain of wrongdoing before the level of the student.

I guess it's easy to say that the IT staff is "incompetent" and the policies are "draconian" when you're not the one who is responsible for keeping 100s or 1000s of laptops up and running with a whole bunch of students who think they know a thing or two trying to install their own software (or reformatting their hard drives, or running Linux because it's cool). You're not the one who gets the angry call from a parent when their son/daughter can't finish their homework on the school-supplied laptop because some friend installed some random junk software. You're not the one who gets in trouble with the administration or school board because all these kids who have laptops now installed IM and are goofing off in class, or cheating, or teasing other kids with it.

The attitude from several people in this thread about the school policies is really bothering me. People, it's precisely because of actions like the ones being suggested in this thread that the laptops are locked down so tight. I can just about guarantee you that the IT personnel didn't go through all the effort to lock down those machines just because they thought it would be fun to get you guys all upset about it. They do it because if they don't, someone comes along and does exactly what you're suggesting (such as reformatting the hard drive) and then go back and complain to IT that the computer is screwed up, and now the IT people have to spend their precious time fixing the mess.

Anyone who purposely and knowingly disobeys district policies for the use of a district resource (yeah, that's what it is, just because you take it home with you doesn't change that fact) deserves to spend a semester answering the phone at their local IT helpdesk. You'll find out very quickly why IT departments have no choice but to put policies in place that can help prevent users from doing something stupid to their computers.

If you want to run Linux or install your own software or boot from a USB key, save up your money and buy your own machine.

----

I meant to be done with this post already, but I'm adding one more thing: you better get used to these policies because you'll find similar ones when you go to college and when you graduate and get a job. Most companies do just about the same thing to their laptops and desktops as the schools do.

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by Dave Flowerday

I meant to be done with this post already, but I'm adding one more thing: you better get used to these policies because you'll find similar ones when you go to college and when you graduate and get a job. Most companies do just about the same thing to their laptops and desktops as the schools do.

Tell it. Getting on the network here at the University of South Carolina at first is a true test of one's patience. (You have to download the University's antivirus software, keep your system patched, and Cisco CleanAccess, which makes sure the above conditions are met. Well, at least on Windows.)

And installing software on a University machine? Unless you're charged specifically with a task such as administering a web server or running a computer lab, forget it.

I've dealt with some doozies here at USC, but it mainly comes down to finding the right person to solve most problems. Believe it or not, working IT for a public institution and knowing what you're doing are not mutually exclusive. Once you find that person who can get the job done, keep their number filed somewhere. Being able to cut past the phone tree to someone who knows your situation tends to do wonders for any issues you may experience.

Or start passing the hat around. You can get a fully-functioning PC for around $250 from Wal-Mart (without a monitor, but we're geeks--surely someone has an old monitor in the garage).

But please, don't attempt to subvert the rules. It almost invariably becomes more trouble than it's worth.