CoreChart - What do you think?

[bear24rw]

What do you think about CoreChart...
I personally find it easier and faster to write code out line by line, I wont be using it... what about you?

[JJG13]

Originally Posted by bear24rw

What do you think about CoreChart...
I personally find it easier and faster to write code out line by line, I wont be using it... what about you?

I don't like "icon languages" such as this but I suppose it would be good for a teams with no programmers that just need to throw something simple together. Plus it costs $99 . That's a little steep when we get mcc for free.

I am curious if the compiler converts the icon-code into c and then compiles that or if it compiles the icon-code directly. If its the former than I could easily make something similar and charge half the price.

[Astronouth7303]

It looks interesting (might even be able to get the mentors off my back), but I prefer real code to wysiwyg systems.

Frankly, I would like to hear of a team that uses this and how well they did.

Originally Posted by JJG13

I am curious if the compiler converts the icon-code into c and then compiles that or if it compiles the icon-code directly. If its the former than I could easily make something similar and charge half the price.

It appears to go straight to ASM, then assembles and links that. This seems to have the advantage of side-stepping mcc18 (it comes with the assembler and linker).

It was also made in VB6, so I very seriously believe you could make the same thing and charge half the price. (and be twice as complete, too!) It also seems fairly simple in the file format.

[BrianBSL]

I voted I don't like it at all, although maybe I'll change my mind someday. It almost seems like its taking a step backwards in terms of ease of use, it's not surprising that it goes straight to assembly as each block seems like they're straight out of the PIC instruction set.

As far as I'm concerned, if you are going to dumb it down to icons, you should make the user not have to understand all of the specifics about the PIC - if you look at http://www.elabtronics.com/CoreChart_FR_Programming.pdf it looks like something out of the PIC datasheet or an assembly class, not something that makes programming the PIC easier. I understand it, but only because I've been using the PIC's for a while. If you ask me, the EasyC approach (the Vex programming software) is a much better approach, as not only does it make it easier, but with the fact that you can see the C code you are writing, it makes you learn C as well.

I'm not saying that programming the PIC in C is the way to go - the overhead is too much for this processor line and the complicated things some FRC teams want to do (mainly in terms of the number of instructions that must be executed to run an ISR, half of which is thanks to the floating point library), but if we're trying to make it easier, CoreChart is not the solution. If you want more efficiency, write the code in assembly yourself.

[hoag]

If you install CoreChart and look at the last mpasm assembler source file in mplab.ini, it's SourceFile=D:\tetris\tetris3t.ASM.
I just thought it was funny, everyone loves tetris

[bear24rw]

I agree with what everyone has said about...

Has anyone else noticed the BASIC commands such as Label and Goto... thats defiently not C lol...

If it is true that it is written in VB6...
i know that all .NET projects are compiled when they are run, so that makes them very, very easy to decompile... im not sure if this is the same for VB6 but if it is the case, i wont be suprised to see it get decompiled and released as freeware, or get modified in another way.

I think if they wanted to help new programmers, they should make it write out acuall C code, so the user can make the flow chart and then look at the output file and go "OHH, so thats how you would do it!", by compiling strait to asm, it really defietes the purpous...

[Rickertsen2]

Originally Posted by BrianBSL

I it looks like something out of the PIC datasheet

Thats because some of the content is copied verbatum from the pic datasheet. Look at page 17 and then look at page 134 of the 18f8520 datasheet. See any similarities?

My first reaction to this software was that i felt threatened by it. It looked to me like something out of lego mindstorms. Now that i have learned a bit more about it, it doesn't seem like a whole lot more than a graphical assembler which is kinda nifty in my opinoin. I might try it out, but not for FIRST.

[ahecht]

I'm surprised the CoreChart spammers haven't hit this thread already. They already filled all the other threads that mentioned CoreChart with their marketing material, and emailed everyone who even mentioned it (I commented on their web site in a post and got a marketing email).

[Dave Scheck]

<EDIT>I originally posted this in reference to CoreChart. I was mistaken and the software that I decribe below is actually the Vex software.</EDIT>

Here are my initial thoughts.

Pros:
- It is pretty easy to get started. Just drop a few blocks out and away you go.
- I liked how they lined the code up with the blocks. I think that will help new people make the transition to real coding.

Cons:
- I quickly found that there was no undo button
- No switch block or if-else if-else block. This made for some nasty nesting. Instead of

if(x > 200)
{
 ...
}
else if(x > 100)
{
...
}
else if(x > 50)
{
...
}
else
{
...
}

You end up with

if(x > 200)
{
...
}
else
{
  if( x > 100)
  {
    ...
  }
  else
  {
    if(x > 50)
    {
      ...
    }
    else
    {
      ...
    }
  }
}

- Inability to select more than one block (i.e. for deletion or commenting)
- There is no way to collapse nested statements
- There is no way to utilize multiple files and/or create libraries.
- I didn't see any support for functions/subroutines
- I created a variable and used it in multiple places then decided to change the name of it. The program did not automatically change all instances of that variable and I saw no easy way to do this other than editing each block that referred to the old variable.
- There is no support for symbolic constants
- The loader is extremely slow. It took longer for me to download a "Hello World" program than it did to download our full RC code from last year
- It looks like the I/O is being done via interrupts since there is no explicit call to read/write. I had a while loop that incremented/decremented a variable and assigned it to a motor value and I think that I was changing the motor value faster than the interrupt. The outward symptom was that the motor wasn't ramping consistently.

Overall, I don't see this product as being useful for teams that are trying to do anything other than simple I/O. It just doesn't offer the flexibility needed to efficiently write software.

[Dave Flowerday]

Originally Posted by Dave Scheck

I played around with the CoreChart software last night. Here are my initial thoughts.

If you're talking about the software we were playing with at our field last night, that wasn't CoreChart... it was the Vex software which is different .

[Dave Scheck]

I just realized that...doh... ...

[Gdeaver]

Before every one starts trashing Easy-C, remember this is the first released version. Easy-C is a work in progress. There are limitations in this release. The else if I believe is addressed along with many other things in version 2.0 which should be released soon. Even with the limitations I've duplicated our 2005 code functionality in VEX and Easy-C. I've witnessed that glassy eyed dazed look on many a 9 grader's face when presented with MPlAB. So far with easy-c they become engaged and start asking questions. I believe Easy-C and Vex offer an excellent platform to ease young students into First robotics. Give Intelitec time to mature the product.

[Miroslav]

[quote=JJG13]I don't like "icon languages" such as this but I suppose it would be good for a teams with no programmers that just need to throw something simple together. Plus it costs $99 . That's a little steep when we get mcc for free.


By the way we are offering CoreChartFR for FREE for the FRC FIRST 2006 competitions!

We are keen to create a more level playing field for the beginner or novice programmers to use an industry strength graphical assembler to program the IFI controllers.

We offer technical support to those FIRST teams who are using CoreChartFR. The feedback from industry mentors about CoreChartFR have been very positive.

CoreChart robotics / embedded software skills development have been used to raised hundreds of thousands of dollars from the Commerce Department (or Economic Development Boards as we call them in Australia) and electronics and non electronics businesses (banks, mining companies, car and wine manufacters etc) in order to sustain a long term development of a niche microchip embedded software industry. As a result thousands of students are learning CoreChart linked to science and mathematics curriculum.

The reason: to lessen the impact of the "Economic Tsunami" of billions of dollars of cheap imports from the low cost production centres in the world that is wiping out thousands of businesses and jobs!

We hope we can all collaborate to solve this global problem!

Good luck.

Miroslav Kostecki

[Elgin Clock]

So they finally released the knowledge about this program eh??

I found that site a few months back (May or June to be exact).

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...45&postcount=7

That's what I was referring to by saying what I did in that thread.

Hopefully having the company who made that program based in Adelaide, South Australia will open up a opportunity for sponsorship to allow the first Australian FIRST team this year.

[Miroslav]

Originally Posted by Elgin Clock

So they finally released the knowledge about this program eh??

I found that site a few months back (May or June to be exact).

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...45&postcount=7

That's what I was referring to by saying what I did in that thread.

Hopefully having the company who made that program based in Adelaide, South Australia will open up a opportunity for sponsorship to allow the first Autralian FIRST team this year.

We will try to get a team from here. Perhaps with your support we could even get a team from Singapore because we have conducted CoreChart Robotic Workshops in Singapore for hundreds of High School students. They love using CoreChart. These students are mentored by University students and Industry mentors.

In order to invite more teams to participate in the FIRST Robotic Competitions what is the best way of making everyone aware that eLabtronics is sponsoring FRC FIRST Robotic Competition with FREE CoreChartFR software?