Why do teams voluntarily do FIRST without adult technical mentors?

[Andy Baker]

Originally Posted by phrontist

Questions of manufacturing are a whole other debate (is buying sub-assembiles from AndyMark kosher?) and should remain seperate from this issue.

Keep in mind that "sub-assemblies from AndyMark" could be replaced with "screws from Fastenal", "wheels from MSC" or "car jacks from your local junkyard". Why single out AndyMark, Inc.?

Originally Posted by phrontist

I think the former question is debatable, students being corrected by engineers or observing the thought process of engineers as they engineer solutions to these (fairly easy) problems is arguably more or less inspiring then allowing students to do it alone (with engineers providing lessons at a higher level, or not at all). But I can see no argument in the latter question! How can you recognize students for the performance of a robot they were only paritally responsible for?

If all participating FIRST students were like you, Bjorn, then I would agree with your logic. You already "get" the fact that you need to further your education and you already know that you will end up in some sort of technical career when you enter the workplace. You probably score between 700 and 800 on the math portion of your SAT's. You have good work experience and are probably graduating high in your class. Colleges are lining up to recruit you to come study on their campus. Also, in order to build a competitive FIRST robot, you don't depend on any adult professionals. You really don't need FIRST to inspire you to become a technical whiz.

Believe it or not, many students are not like you. They actually need help to build a competitive robot. To many of them (and us adult mentors), this is a difficult design challenge. They need resources in fabrication, design, and team leadership. They don't have a dad who owns his own engineering firm. Some of these students don't even know what an engineer is. Their only heros are sports figures. For many, FIRST is introducing engineering to them for the first time. I estimate that most FIRST students fit into this category.

Originally Posted by phrontist

You simply cannot have a fair competition of student wits with engineer designed robots on the feild. FIRST needs engineers, not engineer designed robots.

It's the nature of that partnership that is all important, and to my knowledge, unspecified by FIRST. If it is, I'd love to hear it, but that doesn't mean there isn't room for change. FIRST is it's participants, and should change as the people change.

As quoted many time by the FIRST founders, FIRST is a partnership between students and adults. It is also defined here. The fact that you don't agree with this does not justify your demand that FIRST should change to meet your likes. This partnership and involvement from adult engineers is the foundation of FIRST. This is not a competition to only pit students' wits against each other. It never has been. If that is what you seek there are plenty of other great programs offered to satisfy your needs. I suggest you look into these programs instead of changing FIRST for your liking.


Andy B.

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by Andy Baker

If all participating FIRST students were like you, Bjorn, then I would agree with your logic. You already "get" the fact that you need to further your education and you already know that you will end up in some sort of technical career when you enter the workplace. You probably score between 700 and 800 on the math portion of your SAT's. You have good work experience and are probably graduating high in your class. Colleges are lining up to recruit you to come study on their campus. Also, in order to build a competitive FIRST robot, you don't depend on any adult professionals. You really don't need FIRST to inspire you to become a technical whiz.

People should listen to this Andy Baker character, he seems like a smart guy...

Andy has hit the nail firmly on the head. When I look at these forums, I see some the best and brightest high school students from across North America. As Andy stated, students like Bjorn are near the tops of their classes and already on the fast track to higher education. These students are not a random sample of FIRST. The problem in North America today that FIRST is trying to solve, is that kids don't see the value in becoming an engineer. They don't look up to engineers as role models, it's just another boring career. FIRST was created to change these attitudes, and create a culture where engineers and scientists are valued, and treated like role models. That why this competition was conceived the way it was. By bringing adult engineers into High Schools, kids are able to be inspired by the work that these men and women do. Students who normally wouldn't give engineering a second thought, are now seeing engineers in action. Suddenly, they think to themselves, "Hey that's cool. Maybe I want to do that. Maybe I should take pre calc..."

If you don't have adult technical mentors, this inspiration process can't happen. Dean's said it before, and it's been repeated many times, but it clearly hasn't sunk in yet, so I'll say really loudly.

FIRST is not a science fair!

The FRC is not about determining which high school as the smartest aspiring engineers. Yes, it's not fair to have a bunch high school students on one team competing against a bunch of professional engineers. Clearly the team of professionals is at an advantage. But, it would be silly to exclude them, because they're directly addressing the mission of FIRST, and helping to achieve the desired culture change.

For all those students on teams who have voluntarily given up adult technical support, just remember that not all high school students know much about engineering. In fact, most don't even care about it. Just because you've already been hooked, doesn't mean that everyone else has. Just because you're ready to build a competitive robot on your own, doesn't mean that every other High Schooler is. These kids need to be wowed and inspired, and that's what the adults in FIRST are trying to do. To try and eliminate engineer led teams just so you can have a "fair student competition" is completely selfish. As Andy stated, if that's what you're looking for there are many other competitions out there for you.

I've seen many student only teams do very well over the years. It's not impossible. These teams are a welcome part of FIRST. Each team needs to be tailored to needs, wants and abilities of their students. Just remember just because one shoe fits you, doesn't mean it's going to fit everyone else. And trying to get everyone to wear the same sized shoe in the interest of fairness, is quite frankly, silly.