CoreChart - What do you think?

[BrianBSL]

Originally Posted by Miroslav

We are keen to create a more level playing field for the beginner or novice programmers to use an industry strength graphical assembler to program the IFI controllers.

....

CoreChart robotics / embedded software skills development have been used to raised hundreds of thousands of dollars from the Commerce Department (or Economic Development Boards as we call them in Australia) and electronics and non electronics businesses (banks, mining companies, car and wine manufacters etc) in order to sustain a long term development of a niche microchip embedded software industry. As a result thousands of students are learning CoreChart linked to science and mathematics curriculum.

I understand that CoreChart is a graphical assembler - but I am still not convinced of its application to FIRST. It requires a huge understanding of how the internals of the PIC work, and I believe some serious assembly experience. I think it could be an excellent tool for teaching highschool students assembly and the architecture of the PIC microcontroller, but I really don't think its going to make coding for the FIRST competition any easier than in C.

In fact, I really think it would be more work. Take a look at the .LST file that mcc outputs from your code - every line is one instruction cycle (4 clock cycles), and every line with an assembly instruction (movwf, movff, iorwf, andwf, etc) would be a block in core chart. It's a good way to show how your code looks so simple in C but ends up being inefficient, but I don't think its a good way to make programming any easier.

Shouldn't the point of coding with one of these "chart programming" things be to have every team - from experienced ones to rookies - have an autonomous mode that does something? CoreChart puts you at such a low level (being assembly), that I see even experienced teams not being able to create autonomous modes on it.

[Eldarion]

I agree with the people that said it is faster to write code line-by-line.

Also, standard coding allows much more flexibility. Can you imagine having to write a software-based serial tranceiver with this software?

A third point that I brought up before is that this cheapens the programming end somewhat, as now an autonomous mode isn't anything special.

I for one will NOT be using this software! But then again, I am biased towards standard coding anyway...

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by Eldarion

A third point that I brought up before is that this cheapens the programming end somewhat, as now an autonomous mode isn't anything special.

With the placement of autonomous operation in the past three FRC games as it's been, autonomous is so essential that having an autonomous mode SHOULD NOT be anything special. To be competitive in many scenarios, you have to have one, even if it's a simple unfolding routine. So any sort of program or method that lets teams who may not have ubergeeks doing programming create a decent autonomous mode is a winner in my book.

[Andrew Blair]

Billfred, I agree. Autonomous hasn't been made unspecial yet! Thats where we want to go. Corechart hasn't done anything to programmer's pride yet, and I doubt it will. Actual C code will offer more flexibility most likely. If CoreChart takes off, I think it will be used by inexperienced teams, to get an autonomous off the ground. I agree however that assembly is rather low level for FIRST, and I don't have time to learn the PIC's architechture in a week. So, I'll be using whatever get's what I want done faster. That's what Corechart will end up being used for I think. If Corechart is as bad as has been said, and will out-program FIRST programmers, then we have some pretty poor programmers. Or, Corechart is a great innovation and will revolutionize programming. Who doesn't want something that makes their life eaiser and better? We'll find out soon: CoreChart is offering their software free to FIRST teams.

[Cuog]

I think that it would be a good idea for people that do not really want to learn to code that much but still want to be a programmer, I personally beleive that every "programmer" should be able to open a blank notepad page and be able to write a program that will compile and run.

[Astronouth7303]

Originally Posted by Billfred

So any sort of program or method that lets teams who may not have ubergeeks doing programming create a decent autonomous mode is a winner in my book.

Agreed. But CoreChart doesn't even have a version of the default code (that I can see). It also lacks any higher-level syntax of C (an oxymoron!)

• function arguments & return values
• macros & aliases (preprocessor)
• loops
• switch
• if-else and if-else if-else
• extened if's
• local variables
• no data types other than byte and bit

Without pre-made libraries (or even with), it would take an expert programmer to write using this (a very stupid one, since any such expert programmer would prefer notepad to this).

If you're going to make a graphical flow-chart-inspired program like this, you need a lot more encapsulation than that.

We can glean a few things from the CoreChart help file, seeing the reference to "IFRC2006" (assuming it's not a typo seen everywhere).

• They're working with IFI on the next game
• We'll likely see it in the kit
• There'll be no major changes to the controller (the image in the help file is identical to last year's)

[Astronouth7303]

Originally Posted by Cuog

I personally beleive that every "programmer" should be able to open a blank notepad page and be able to write a program that will compile and run.

In C, with this compiler, that is indeed a programmer that knows his stuff.

[Andrew Blair]

For confirmation's sake, I point everyone to this thread: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=40988


CoreChart will be available free to any FIRST team. However, whether they have an actual affiliation with FIRST or not is another story, for another time. Like in 8 days.

[Astronouth7303]

http://www.ifirobotics.com/edu-rc.shtml#Programming

I'm pretty sure they do.

[phrontist]

People who complain that CoreChart is too easy are missing the point. Skill in software engineering is all about algorithmic understanding and intuition. Implemenation is an important, but ultimately secondary, concern. Programming languages are more or less arbitrary.

That said, I really like C. C is an industry standard for a reason, it gives you almost as much control as assembler, but allows for abstraction. It is, for me, perfectly placed on the abstraction/control continuum.

[Eldarion]

Originally Posted by phrontist

That said, I really like C. C is an industry standard for a reason, it gives you almost as much control as assembler, but allows for abstraction. It is, for me, perfectly placed on the abstraction/control continuum.

Very well said! This is exactly what I was trying to say (albiet very poorly) earlier.

As a side note, I am always concerned that this stuff will make it easy at the expense of the programmer actually learning about the algorithms. A graphical envronment encourages that, as you can have a high level block (such as "Execute PID") that is just there to use, but you don't have to actually know anything about a PID loop to use it!

[dlavery]

Originally Posted by Astronouth7303

http://www.ifirobotics.com/edu-rc.shtml#Programming

I'm pretty sure they do.

All that does is document that CoreChart will work with the IFI controllers, which are sold to a larger audience than just FIRST teams. There are many IFI-supporrted items that are not included in the Kit Of Parts and are not applicable/available to FIRST teams. We may yet learn on Saturday that CoreChart is one such item.

-dave

[Miroslav]

Originally Posted by dlavery

All that does is document that CoreChart will work with the IFI controllers, which are sold to a larger audience than just FIRST teams. There are many IFI-supporrted items that are not included in the Kit Of Parts and are not applicable/available to FIRST teams. We may yet learn on Saturday that CoreChart is one such item.

-dave

The FREE CoreChartFR for FRC2006 could lead to multi-million dollar eLabtronics sponsorships to create large scale smart kids and IPs in order to lessen the impact of the "Economic Tsunami" that is destroying jobs and businesses everywhere.

[phrontist]

Originally Posted by Miroslav

The FREE CoreChartFR for FRC2006 could lead to multi-million dollar eLabtronics sponsorships to create large scale smart kids and IPs in order to lessen the impact of the "Economic Tsunami" that is destroying jobs and businesses everywhere.

Huh?!

[Astronouth7303]

Originally Posted by phrontist

Huh?!

Look at his alliances. Look at his posts. Put 2 & 2 together. (Let's just say, there is a large, GP-shaped hole.)