Lego Mindstorms: What went wrong?

[artdutra04]

Originally Posted by JoeXIII'007

I could use something along this line to help mentor the FLL team at the nearby middle school. The students I mentor, though young and great thinkers, have a hard time working with the set, because it requires such advanced thinking in order to utilize it correctly. Even I cannot build a robust robot out of that set (which is embarrassing, considering I've had 3 years to tinker with it.) I can build good models, not great.

It is because of its advanced concept that the Mindstorm was doomed, and that is what I think latif was trying to get to with the article.

The Lego Mindstorms line, at least IMHO, was and is not too advanced for its target age category of 9-14. The Lego Mindstorms line was intended to be an "educational" product, in which playing with it was a learning experience. Therefore, it was never meant to "be mastered" by everyone, but rather provide a vehicle for people to learn and become better.

I used to play with Lego Mindstorms kits a lot before the days of Vex, and I made some pretty cool things. One of my favorite was a locking drivetrain robot that I helped to create when I mentored two Lego League teams last year. Inside the uberly robust chassis, there was a rotation sensor and a motor that would physically lock the two different motors for each side of the robot together. That way, they robot would drive perfectly straight, and using a rotation sensor, it could very accurately measure distance and turning. Here are some pictures of it:



The locking motor and rotation sensor:

Originally Posted by Andrew Blair

One thing in the slashdot thread that makes some sense is to sell better main units. Adults are using these devices, and adults tire of only being able to use 3 motors and three sensors. Expand, compound, make more appealing units that cost lots of money!

That is where Vex comes in. I think that Vex may steal the adult hobby robotics market from the Lego Mindstorms kits. For many years, people have been hacking the RCX'x to allow for more motor and sensor ports, and to create custom sensors. Now they already have a controller off the shelf that can basically be plug-and-play with any PWM servo, PWM speed controller, or any +5v sensor with the Vex kits.

[eiii]

The Mindstorm is definitly aimed towards younger kids, but there doesn't seem to be a huge amount of interest among them. Also, they're kinda costly.

[Beth Sweet]

Originally Posted by eiii

The Mindstorm is definitly aimed towards younger kids, but there doesn't seem to be a huge amount of interest among them. Also, they're kinda costly.

I think you hit the nail on the head. Kids have a lot of toys aimed at them and in the minds of most, this is a toy like all the others. It is just too expensive in the minds of most and doesn't really offer too much more than other toys.

[Ian Curtis]

Remember a few years back when rumors flew that LEGO was cancelling the Mindstorms line? If I remember LEGO came within inches but didn't cross the border. Whew

I recieved a Mindstorms kit for christmas in either '99 or 2000. I played around with it for a while and then after a few simple carts kinda lost interest in it. Meanwhile my dad and one of my cousin built 3 axis arms and the like. I thought it was cool but never thought I could do it. My dad pretty much fell in love with it though and the following year my school had an FLL team. I immediately fell in love with FLL.

That being said, I think the kits are too open ended for the 9-12 age range. Having a competition like FLL however students are given something to work towards and are rewarding in a competitive atmosphere for their work, amoung their peers.

Also I believe that Mindstorms could be used much like Vex, if you get people to realize what complex things you can do. For example take this (its at the bottom of the newsletter) Mindstorms robot capable of moving 60 pounds! I consider any FLL team who can get everything on the table done 90% of the time to have created a piece of engineering equal to an FRC team who could cap a vision tetra 90% of the time.

(The only sad thing about this forum is it inevitably gets less traffic than the general forum, so most likely this topic will not be as well developed. Sigh... )

[jeffmorris]

I think that I wasted my money on LEGO Mindstorms sets and LEGO building sets. Is it possible to combine the LEGO Technic parts with the VEX Robotics parts?

[Al Skierkiewicz]

I cannot tell you how often this thread has appeared over the years. Virtually since the beginning of FLL someone comes up with a line about Lego dropping, cancelling support, modifying or selling off the Mindstorms product line. Untill I hear it from a Lego exec, I wouldn't believe it.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by jeffmorris

Is it possible to combine the LEGO Technic parts with the VEX Robotics parts?

I don't think so. The hole spacing is different, I think. I have toyed with both systems. (2 different Mindstorms sets and a bit with the family VEX set)

[greencactus3]

Originally Posted by EricH

I don't think so. The hole spacing is different, I think. I have toyed with both systems. (2 different Mindstorms sets and a bit with the family VEX set)

are you kidding. everything is possible. thats why these are so fun. ive combined lego and knex, erector(was it?), and too many nonconventional parts to list. vaccuum cleaners, oh which i actually have a video of. one of the first models i made when i got the mindstorms kit. and 15 lbs barbells... makes for a nice trebuche(sp?). yea. i reccomend that as a project to anyone interested in learning more about making beefier lego projects. the bracing required to keep a model together with 15lbs of swinging weight was lets say.... intense. i learned so much from building that.. well. point is. everything is adaptable somehow.

[KarenH]

The article discussed the production cost of the RCX--supposedly less than $1.00. The RCX currently retails for $119 on the Lego website, but is "Not Available" (and wasn't several weeks ago, when I researched the possibility of an upgrade for the FLL team my son is mentoring). Since the Mindstorms RIS set itself costs $199, it's almost more cost effective to just buy another RIS set.

So, the most important part of the set is both ridiculously expensive and officially irreplaceable. Such a practice won't endear Lego to American consumers who are interested in getting a good value.

I also found the concept of "Lego literacy" interesting. I used to play with Legos when I was a kid, but I think I would be unable to do anything with the newer, fancier, and over-specialized kits sold these days. (I really don't want transparent pink bat wings on my little brick boat, thank you!) But I think the Mindstorms kit offers excellent mentoring possibilities between the older Lego-literate maniacs and the interested but Lego-illiterate younger kids.

[greencactus3]

Originally Posted by KarenH

So, the most important part of the set is both ridiculously expensive and officially irreplaceable. Such a practice won't endear Lego to American consumers who are interested in getting a good value.

nah. look at the ipod. look at um. EVERYTHING

[Ryan M.]

Originally Posted by greencactus3

nah. look at the ipod. look at um. EVERYTHING

But the difference between and iPod and Mindstorms is that there are other MP3 players, where as Mindstorm's competition is... nothing.

[JoeXIII'007]

Originally Posted by Ryan M.

But the difference between and iPod and Mindstorms is that there are other MP3 players, where as Mindstorm's competition is... nothing.

Really??? I thought Cyber K'NEX was a competitor of sorts.

[Ryan M.]

Originally Posted by JoeXIII'007

Really??? I thought Cyber K'NEX was a competitor of sorts.

Good point, although the fact that I didn't think of it indicates it may not a be a really strong competitor. (Or that I just didn't. Whichever.)

I do feel that part of Mindstorm's "problem" is that there is at least an appearance of little competition. Because people aren't aware of the (somewhat limited) alternatives, they don't buy them, so LEGO has little motivation for improvement.

[fb39ca4]

Originally Posted by JoeXIII'007

Really??? I thought Cyber K'NEX was a competitor of sorts.

Hardly. I had a Cyber K'nex set and it is about as functional as the Mindstorms Droid Developer Kit - one motor, a few pre-programmed behaviors, and some cheesy sound effects.

[Jessica Boucher]

Originally Posted by Ryan M.

But the difference between and iPod and Mindstorms is that there are other MP3 players, where as Mindstorm's competition is... nothing.

I think what greencactus was trying to get at (and if I'm wrong, please correct me) was the economic sense of their similarities, which hails back to the theme of the article. In that sense of the word, the iPod and the RCX are durable goods (which can be used over and over again) as opposed to nondurable goods which can be used once (like food).

The Mindstorms RIS and the iPod are also similar because they're touted as the "big holiday gift", much like an iPod or a computer.

There's lots more I want to say about this later. This is a great discussion - keep it up!