new from IFI

[Andrew Blair]

I would almost guarantee these will be shipped with the kit frame. In FIRST's new neverending quest to try to equalize teams, they released the kit-bot. In actual competition, the frame and gearboxes seemed to perform very well, but teams using the skyway wheels were at a major disadvantage. From experience, they slid sideways more easily than simply pushing against them. FIRST will once again attempt to equalize the playing field by adding more support to the kit frame. I should say rather that FIRST is trying to raise the level of competition.

[Kevin Watson]

Originally Posted by Rickertsen2

It is interesting to note that the page title is "IFI Robotics - FRC 2005 Kit Parts". perhaps they will be in the kit or we will receive a voucher to order whatever size we want.

For this conjecture to have a hope, wouldn't it need to read "IFI Robotics - FRC 2006 Kit Parts" <grin>?

-Kevin

[Noah Melamed]

Originally Posted by lil'lavery

I'm such a ninja that you'd never expect I'm a ninja...

We're on to you lil'lavery, you and your trickery..

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Andrew Blair

I would almost guarantee these will be shipped with the kit frame. In FIRST's new neverending quest to try to equalize teams, they released the kit-bot. In actual competition, the frame and gearboxes seemed to perform very well, but teams using the skyway wheels were at a major disadvantage. From experience, they slid sideways more easily than simply pushing against them. FIRST will once again attempt to equalize the playing field by adding more support to the kit frame. I should say rather that FIRST is trying to raise the level of competition.

And then if they do include them in the KOP, I would almost guarentee that there would be an outlash of criticism from the community complaining that in their quest to help make this thing easier on rookies and newer teams, IFI subsequently made it so their robot can't turn

[Ian Curtis]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

Hey, I'm not my dad, I dont know anything!

If we were supposed to believe that, you never should have made this post!

[Andrew Blair]

Originally Posted by Cory

And then if they do include them in the KOP, I would almost guarentee that there would be an outlash of criticism from the community complaining that in their quest to help make this thing easier on rookies and newer teams, IFI subsequently made it so their robot can't turn

Yes, but only after teams in their quest to get more traction created 8 wheel designs, after IFI specifically gave them skyway's to put in front...

[Richard Wallace]

Originally Posted by Joe Johnson

One of the things I like about IFI, AM, etc. offering these kind of cool products is that they bring good solid engineering solutions to many teams that have little chance of rolling their own.

Beatty, WildStang, TechnoKats, Chief Delphi, International Fuel Cell, etc, they have had access to these solutions from day one. Now many many more teams can have them on their robots.

I think it is a good thing.

Hear, hear. Let's reward the folks who produce things that we like by buying their products!

Originally Posted by Big Mike

For some odd reason these wheels smell like JVN

Actually they smell like rubber conveyor belting, with faint hints of adhesive. But I can confirm that their design carries the talented Mr. Vielkind-Neun's fingerprints.

Earlier today, I was lucky enough to see and handle the 4" and 6" IFI wheels shown at the link that started this thread. JVN brought them to the Pilot FVC event at St. Louis, and was nice enough to let interested people preview this soon-to-be-released IFI product.

I want some!

[sanddrag]

I'm a member of the small but mighty "I think FIRST is getting too easy" club but I can't say I would really mind these showing up in the KOP. Shiny metal with grippy tread vs dull plastic with slick tread;no real contest there.

[Andrew Blair]

Two supporting facts towards my "these will be included in the KOP" theory:

1. There is no proposed price on the IFI website. If they had a interest in selling them seperate from the kitbot, they would probably try and give teams a taste of the price, and get them out before build so teams can give them a test drive.

2. AndyMark has a traction wheel out. No, I don't think the indiana mafia is telling IFI they can't sell wheels, but IFI would have a better interest in including the 6" or 4" wheels, then selling separately the kind they don't include. As most teams used at least part of the kitbot this year, it would certainly mean lots of teams would buy spares.

But who knows. Maybe John and the gang over at IFI have finished that whole "waterproofing the electronics thing" and wheels won't be needed!

[CJO]

I don't think that these (neccessarily) indicate anything about the game, but a lot of successful teams have used similar (although frequently milled) wheels, indeed, our team never even considered using the KOP wheels before, so this would make it easier for a beginning team.

However, having used the identical tread material before, I can attest that it wears out rather quickly, I hope they make it easy to change.

[Holtzman]

I would tend to disagree with the running trend in this thread. I don't believe these wheels will be in the kit of parts for several circumstantial reasons.

1. If they were going to be in the kit, Why would IFI release them now? Did they release the kitbot chassis last December? Did they release the Kitbot Transmission last December? definitely not. Mind you, releasing the kitbotwould have given away details about certain rule changes(size constraints, 4 CIM's). Releasing these now only gives away the fact that wheels will be useful in next years game. Wow, who could have predicted that?

2. Different sizes - The fact that they offer different sizes at all tells me that they are intended to give teams options... and if there were in the kit of parts, teams would be stuck with whatever size they gave out.

3. Cost - I'd estimate that these wheels are going to retail for somewhere in the range of about $50 usd based on other competitive prices(AM). So say for arguments sake, say they cost IFI $30 to make.

So $30 x 4 wheels x ~1000 teams = A LOT of $$$$


And the reality is, a lot of teams just aren't going to use them. And that means wasted money for FIRST, and higher registration fee's for us.

So, in my opinion, these will not be in the KOP... and just aftermarket products(darn good ones at that). I could definitely see IFI going more indepth into the aftermarket robot component business. After all, a little friendly competition between companies is good for the customer. Helps keep costs down, and quality up.

[Andrew Blair]

I definitely agree with the question of IFI releasing them early, but there obviously is some market interest with the different sized wheels. I have to disagree with the argument of increased costs causing FIRST not to include them. Exhibit A: The kit bot itself. The material in the frame itself has over 1000 square inches of 1/8 aluminum in it, whereas a 6" wheel probably has like 100 square inches of 1/8. so, with two wheels included, that less than 1/5 of the kit bot material. They could probably use scraps!

That notwithstanding, they probably don't actually cost 30 bucks to make ( I know you were just using an example...but I'm in a number mood.) At a high price, which IFI probably won't have in bulk, 1/8" aluminum costs like 9.7 cents a square inch. .097*100=$9.70. Add in 7 dollars for two good 1/2" bearings, and the total is 15.70. I don't know how much wedgetop costs, but lets say 3 bucks to cover a wheel. Add in a bit of hardware and we're still only at 20 bucks. Thats as much as we paid for a spare side rail.

So, assuming IFI only gives us two, with two skyways in front, thats 40 bucks added onto the cost, minus whatever the skyway's cost FIRST. Sounds like a good deal to me for what you would get out of it by helping teams out!

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Andrew Blair

So, assuming IFI only gives us two, with two skyways in front, thats 40 bucks added onto the cost, minus whatever the skyway's cost FIRST. Sounds like a good deal to me for what you would get out of it by helping teams out!

yeah, it sounds like a good deal... until you multiply by 1,000

[Andrew Blair]

Originally Posted by Cory

yeah, it sounds like a good deal... until you multiply by 1,000

Yeah, but remember, whatever is in the KOP is multiplied by a thousand.

Last year alone:
$150 for the CMU
$300 for two gearboxes (estimation)
$100 for the kit frame
+____________________
$550 added on by FIRST to the cost of the kit. At least. So, $40, which would be a 7.2% increase in the kitbot's cost this year, sounds like a walk in the park to me compared to last years increase, for a rather needed improvement to the kitbot. It is a fact that we'll be getting the kitbot in the future; there was simply too much much put into it all (gearbox especially) for FIRST to throw it away. However, we may get it in a slightly modified form. And really, if something is going to be around for awhile, wouldn't IFI try and improve upon it? I really, really hate accounting, but the numbers tell the whole story.

[Gdeaver]

They also have a use as just a hub. A team can experiment with different coverings if First throws a weird surface at us.