Student / Mentor, desgn/build Poll

[Collin Fultz]

Originally Posted by Ebolagirl

Where's the choice for student designed/student built with a little bit of mentor guidance?

Answer:

Originally Posted by gburlison

I think some people are overlooking the intent of this poll. The question was not, "What is the best way for the team to build a robot?" This poll is supposed to be, "Pick what you think is the best of two almost equally bad choices and if you want to, tell us why."

The question isn't "How does your team work?" or even "How do you wish your team worked?" or "How does the ideal team work?"

It is "Pick: A or B"

[Alex Burman]

Originally Posted by Collin Fultz

The question isn't "How does your team work?" or even "How do you wish your team worked?" or "How does the ideal team work?"

It is "Pick: A or B"

I believe I speak for many people when i say this but we believe there should be an option C, a balance, where the engineers and mentors guide the students.

Take a rookie team for example with no experience what so ever. You have the best engineers in the field:

Option A: The engineers make the best design possible, but the students struggle through building it and may have parts not put on right or not at all because they didn't know what they were. They get to the competition and come in last.

Option B: The students make a OK design with a few of flaws and the engineers follow it to the T in constructing it. At the competition they win a few matches but don't get anywhere. But the students are still proud to see their design succeed somewhat.

my Option C: The students and engineers collaborate, with the students creativity and the engineers experience, create a very good design that satisfies everyones needs. The engineers help the students through the building process explaining how things work, what has proven good, what has proven bad. At the competition the robot proves great and the team ends up first seed.


yes I know the examples are extremes but the show the point.

[phrontist]

These results dishearten me greatly.

[Nuttyman54]

Originally Posted by phrontist

These results dishearten me greatly.

Care to explain some more? It seems to me that most everyone who's replied has a slightly different variation on a general theme: It's best when there's the right mix of both mentors and students working on both aspects.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Grayswandir-75

I believe I speak for many people when i say this but we believe there should be an option C, a balance, where the engineers and mentors guide the students.

Do I have to quote Collin or anyone else who saw through this one? Steve did not put in a third option on purpose. The idea was to get us to choose the lesser of two evils, not come up with an alternate. That lesser depends on the team and the year. Most people on the thread went for a third option that was not in the poll. Now, that is not answering the question. If this were on a multiple-choice test in a class, and the only responses were the two in the poll, and if the correct answer, which you knew was correct, was not there, you couldn't insert it, and only those two answers on the test were "right" (to get credit), you would practically have to choose one, right? If you didn't, you would get the question wrong, right? But, both are wrong, and you have to choose one. Choose the lesser of two evils, whichever it is, and you get the question "right".

Let's not introduce something that isn't there. I don't care if you don't do either of these or if you do one or the other, these are the only two options. Pick one.

Should there be an option C? No. It's the way it is for a reason. The question was designed to be as close to unanswerable as possible, and to get people to see two sides of an ongoing discussion (if I understand Steve right, that is).

[EDIT] We are assuming, for these purposes, that only two options exist, and that both are bad. There are situations like that in real life, though they are rare. [/EDIT]

[EricH]

After thinking a while, I chose student designed/mentor built. The reasons: 1) Students have ideas that mentors might not. (The same is true the other way, but students might come up with something that is totally crazy and the mentors might just dismiss.) 2) Mentors are more likely to know how to build x part or know where to get it built. 3) Assuming that mentors are allowed to give feedback/make suggestions, a mentor may spot something that a student missed, then show said student what he missed and what some possible solutions are. If this is not allowed, mentor may just fix it if it's minor, then tell the student later.

My $0.02 worth (worth everything you paid for it ).

[Nuttyman54]

I chose student designed/mentor build also. My reasoning is similar to EricH's, but is based my team's goals and capabilities. We have very little in the way of machining capabilities, and so most of our assembly is with nuts and bolts, which (in my opinion) is not very different if a student does it or a mentor does it. One of our main goals, however, is to encourage creative solutions to engineering problems. In my experience, most of these solutions come from the brainstorming and designing end, not from the manufacturing end. I have seen the build team come up with innovative solutions to problems not addressed by the designers, though.

[Andrew Blair]

Originally Posted by EricH

But, both are correct, and you have to choose one. Choose one, and you get the question right.

Nope. Neither one is right. Trick question, you lose. J/K. Fact is, nobody ever has a completely correctly operated team. Some come close, but theres always somebody who doesn't like it. Think of it as a number line. Both answers are at the opposite ends of the spectrum, with the ideal choice in the center. But, like some evil parabolic slope, you can't ever get to the middle. Oh well, stuff happens, the universe will average out eventually...Probably.....

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by EricH

If this were on a test in a class, and the only responses were the two in the poll, you would have to choose one, right? If you didn't, you would get the question wrong, right? But, both are correct, and you have to choose one. Choose one, and you get the question right.

The thing is, this is not a question on a test in class. I believe that if you do choose one of the given options, you get it wrong, big time.

The intent of this poll was to force a choice between the lesser of two evils. I reject that choice as unrealistic and unnecessary. Making such a choice cannot further the goals of this community.

[phrontist]

Originally Posted by Nuttyman54

Care to explain some more? It seems to me that most everyone who's replied has a slightly different variation on a general theme: It's best when there's the right mix of both mentors and students working on both aspects.

I think the question is a valid one. Which is the lesser of two evils? What bothers me is that the majority seem to think student design responsibility is more important than student build responsibility.

Engineers design things. A variety of highly skilled machinists and other technicians implement them (well, occasionally an engineer makes things, but it's the exception to the rule). They are both very important, but FIRST aims to turn out more engineers.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson

The intent of this poll was to force a choice between the lesser of two evils.

Was it? Steve's post on page 3 of this thread gives another explanation, and he should know the intent better than anyone.

[phrontist]

Originally Posted by EricH

Was it?

Yes. I simply rephrased for dramatic effect.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by phrontist

Yes. I simply rephrased for dramatic effect.

See my previous post. That is not the whole purpose.

[Steve W]

Let's try again. Page 3 quote :
"All I ask is that we all look at all sides of the discussions. Push our limits. Try to see things from the other side and most of all, do not condemn others for how or why they do things. This is FIRST, let's grow!"

First of all I do not believe either are right in 99.9% of the time. I do believe that I started this thread with a purpose. There are so many on these forums that have become closed in their thoughts and believe that they are the only right ones. I deliberately introduced a question that would cause a lot of people to think. Is it better to have professionals design and students implement or vice versa? Which would inspire more? What do engineers bring to the table? What do students bring to the table? Are all students equal? Are all engineers equal?

Work through the thought process, look at things from different angles. Keep our minds open. Inspiration comes in many forms, ways and people. Let's not close out minds but approach this new season with our eyes wide open. Let us see the value that engineers have. Let us see the fresh ideas of students. Let's do tasks that we haven't tried before. Let's grow ourselves and FIRST to new heights in 2006.

[Arkorobotics]

How about students do all the work and mentors help when we get stuck on an idea.
I believe mentors are there to help when we get stuck, and to support us and open our minds to see ideas in different ways.