FREE CoreChartFR

[BrianBSL]

Originally Posted by Eldarion

But this software is kind of like Mindstorms for the FRC, so how does that require more skill?

Because core chart is a graphical assembler, not a graphical high-level language program. There are no floats - there arn't even any 16-bit variables. Everything is 8 bits, period. You are 100% limited to the PIC 18 instruction set. Want to store a literal (like 0x77) in a variable? You can't just move it right into it, you have to move it into the working register and then into the variable. There are not blocks for everything you want to do like there is in mindstorms, you have to create everything out of assembly instructions.

Take a look at the .lst that c18 makes for you. Every assembly instruction there would be a block in corechart.

I'm not saying I would use it - I'd program in C, and if I had to use assembly I'd do it by hand. I am, however, saying that it requires more skill than writing C code in MPLAB. All it does for you is makes it so you cant screw up the syntax.

[Eldarion]

Originally Posted by BrianBSL

Because core chart is a graphical assembler, not a graphical high-level language program.

Thanks for clearing that up. I was under the impression that it was a graphical high-level language similar to MindStorms.

One has to wonder what the benefit of this software actually is. It seems like an odd mix of high and low level stuff, and C already performs syntax checking.

[Miroslav]

Note that CoreChartFR now runs on the 2005 controller and runs on the 2006 controller too ( this has been tested ). Updates will be available on our web site.

eLabtronics will not put the sponsored key number to unlock the 30 day trial limit on CoreChartFR on the Internet since it is for FIRST Robotics students, mentors, teachers and sponsors only. We have put together a PDF document including the number and how to unlock CoreChartFR. This document can be passed on to other FIRST members but is not to be put onto the Internet for general access.

If anyone who is mentioned as qualifying ( above ) for sponsorship wants a copy of the document please email me at miro@elabtronics.com and I will email it back to you. Anyone is welcome to help pass on this document to other FIRST members.

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by Eldarion

One has to wonder what the benefit of this software actually is. It seems like an odd mix of high and low level stuff, and C already performs syntax checking.

It goes further than syntax checking, making it basically impossible to create syntax errors in the first place. The brief demo I saw convinced me that it's a very friendly programming environment. I'm not sure how much power, if any, is sacrificed for that friendliness. I believe that I'd end up feeling frustrated with how much time it would take to create a program, though it's possible that I'd find the test/debug process to be faster.

The main potential benefit I can see is that some people are good with "programming" but not with "coding". Giving them the ability to express code as a graphical flowchart overcomes the conceptual hurdle of writing programs as textual instructions.

[Danny Diaz]

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson

The main potential benefit I can see is that some people are good with "programming" but not with "coding". Giving them the ability to express code as a graphical flowchart overcomes the conceptual hurdle of writing programs as textual instructions.

That's the benefit of pretty much all graphical programming languages, LabVIEW being one of them (and to a lesser extent MatLab and related languages that hide the inner details of how the data is stored). In my experience I have found that people who are comfortable with text based languages will not like programming in a graphical language at first, mainly because graphical programming languages require a different mindset and algorithm base. Even though I am very fluent in LabVIEW now I still prefer to do some things in a textual language because I haven't convinced myself yet that doing it in LabVIEW (or any graphical language) could be as efficient, even though I've had people tell me it is (but they were LabVIEW developers, who can trust them? ).

-Danny

[aaeamdar]

"But this software is kind of like Mindstorms for the FRC, so how does that require more skill?"

If it's anything like Mindstorms (which I've used) our team won't be using it. I've programmed in Java and C and C++ and you can't go back to legos after that.

But could someone please clarify what it is or give a description of what it does? Or link me to their site.

Thanks

[Stu Bloom]

Understanding that I am a mechanical guy ... please bear with me ...

HERE is the website to download the program. As I understand it, this is a graphical programming interface that SKIPS the conventional coding and compiler steps and takes you from the graphical interface directly to assembler. I believe when the RC gets it, it is a smaller and more efficient file, and this method eliminates the potential for typos, and syntax and compiling errors.

Paul, if you re-read this thread I think your questions have all been previously answered.

I am sure some of the programmers out there can correct me and elaborate if necessary.

[Miroslav]

Originally Posted by Stu Bloom

HERE is the website to download the program. As I understand it, this is a graphical programming interface that SKIPS the conventional coding and compiler steps and takes you from the graphical interface directly to assembler. I believe when the RC gets it, it is a smaller and more efficient file, and this method eliminates the potential for typos, and syntax and compiling errors.

Thats a good description but CoreChartFR does more than that. Subroutines ( including functions from the default C code ) are selectable from a list. Also variables ( default C code and user generated ) are selectable from a list. This means that the programmer does not need to rely on his/her memory ( or constant reference to a printed list ) to program but can concentrate on the process instead.

[Astronouth7303]

Originally Posted by Miroslav

Thats a good description but CoreChartFR does more than that. Subroutines ( including functions from the default C code ) are selectable from a list. Also variables ( default C code and user generated ) are selectable from a list. This means that the programmer does not need to rely on his/her memory ( or constant reference to a printed list ) to program but can concentrate on the process instead.

You should be doing this anyway.

As far as I can determine, there's nothing C about it. The default variables are hardware registers. All variables fall under one of 2 types: bit and byte. Constants are darn near impossible to make.

Welcome to the wonderful world of kludging. My name is Jamie and I'll be your tour guide.

[Dave Flowerday]

Originally Posted by Astronouth7303

You should be doing this anyway.

As far as I can determine, there's nothing C about it. The default variables are hardware registers. All variables fall under one of 2 types: bit and byte. Constants are darn near impossible to make.

Welcome to the wonderful world of kludging. My name is Jamie and I'll be your tour guide.

There seems to be a lot of people on this thread and the other one ripping on this CoreChart. Some of the comments strike me as rather rude. An organization has created a tool that they think will be useful to FIRST and offered it for free. That's a very nice gesture, whether you like the software or not. If you don't like it, feel free to not use it. What if, as we speak, a company who writes a piece of software that you really would like to have is reading this thread, thinking about offering something for free to FIRST teams? What if they read all the negative comments here and figure "Why would I want to give something away to that ungrateful bunch?"

[1075master]

i agree with dave thats definelty not gracious professionalism!!
anyway i just wanted to ask does this mean we have to completely rewrite all the code or do we simply open the current code file in this program and start programming??

[Miroslav]

Originally Posted by 1075master

i agree with dave thats definelty not gracious professionalism!!
anyway i just wanted to ask does this mean we have to completely rewrite all the code or do we simply open the current code file in this program and start programming??

CoreChartFR contains all the default code provided by IFI for the controller. The programmer simply opens the current code and starts programming. The default structure and subroutines are included and can be used by the programmer.

One good example is the "EventTimer" example program which includes the default subroutine in the main program and has a timer in the autonomous subroutine that allows the user to execute instructions at a certain time and then jump back out of autonomous mode after a user specified time.

[Gdeaver]

Software is a tool. Select the tool you feel most comfortable with and use it. I have 6 different hammers on my truck. When I need to whack something I pick the best hammer for the task. I could get by with 1 Hammer but that would be difficult. The situation is analogous to First. In the past we only had the MPLAB hammer. This year we may Have 3 different software hammers. The big point is we have a choice. Also note that LEGO is using the company that makes LabView to produce a graphical robot programming system. Maybe next year First will have more software hammers. I also believe that some of the negativism on this forum can be attributed to some programmers feeling threatened by some new software that may allow common mortals to program the robot reducing their stature as a god on the team. The other point I would like to make is "time to market". The build season is short. If a new graphical programming system will get the robot up and running faster this can make a big difference in time to market. Humans are tool users. Keep your tool locker full.

[SoftwareBug2.0]

Originally Posted by Dave Flowerday

There seems to be a lot of people on this thread and the other one ripping on this CoreChart. Some of the comments strike me as rather rude. An organization has created a tool that they think will be useful to FIRST and offered it for free. That's a very nice gesture, whether you like the software or not. If you don't like it, feel free to not use it. What if, as we speak, a company who writes a piece of software that you really would like to have is reading this thread, thinking about offering something for free to FIRST teams? What if they read all the negative comments here and figure "Why would I want to give something away to that ungrateful bunch?"

This forum is not about pleasing sponsors but about people communicating what they think.

[Eldarion]

Originally Posted by SoftwareBug2.0

This forum is not about pleasing sponsors but about people communicating what they think.

I am with Dave on this one. What I have said earlier should be considered rants against a general direction in the software industry, not specifically against CoreChart itself!