School Problems

[SURVIVORfan44]

Originally Posted by Don Rotolo

Seems to me that both of you (and anyone else in a similar situation) need to EXPLAIN to 'them' what FIRST is, how it benefits the school, community, and students. Especially students. The administration and Board are not mind readers, so the task now is to GO to a board meeting and give a short (3-5 minutes) but logical and sane presentation about FIRST.

Thanks for the advice from everyone. We have tried multiple attempts to explain to both the school and the schoolboard about what FIRST is. I hate to say this, but 90% of the people that live in my county are extremely simple-minded. We have tried to break it up into simple pieces. They still do not understand it the way we want them to understand it. Since students are not allowed into the meetings, we can't exactly show the schoolboard how it gives us the experience. It's just too late with kick-off next week. Its just easier to forget the hassle and join our other team. It might not be the same experience, but we still get to be involved with FIRST. I just wanted to let other teams know that they are not the only ones out there with school-related problems. (It might just make them feel a bit better).

[Safarley2901]

Originally Posted by SURVIVORfan44

Thanks for the advice from everyone. We have tried multiple attempts to explain to both the school and the schoolboard about what FIRST is. I hate to say this, but 90% of the people that live in my county are extremely simple-minded. We have tried to break it up into simple pieces. They still do not understand it the way we want them to understand it. Since students are not allowed into the meetings, we can't exactly show the schoolboard how it gives us the experience. It's just too late with kick-off next week. Its just easier to forget the hassle and join our other team. It might not be the same experience, but we still get to be involved with FIRST. I just wanted to let other teams know that they are not the only ones out there with school-related problems. (It might just make them feel a bit better).

WAIT your students are allowed into school board mettings ?!?! Thats Ridiculus

When I lived in Alexandria, VA Students were allowed, What type of bull is that. I would look into that. I really dont know how the education system runs down there anymore. But there is no reason you shouldn't be allowed into school board meetings.

[SURVIVORfan44]

Yeah, I wish there was something we could change, but the decision has been made final.

[Safarley2901]

Originally Posted by SURVIVORfan44

Yeah, I wish there was something we could change, but the decision has been made final.

Well then go ahead and merge with the other team. Your school can't stop you, or for no reason hinder you, or discourage you from going, using school related reasons. Except for getting out of school for competitions that is. In that case just get ur parents to get you out.

[SURVIVORfan44]

Originally Posted by Safarley2901

Well then go ahead and merge with the other team. Your school can't stop you, or for no reason hinder you, or discourage you from going, using school related reasons. Except for getting out of school for competitions that is. In that case just get ur parents to get you out.

That's the snag--getting out of school for a school approved absence. I have all four years of perfect attendance of high school, I never ever miss a day. But, I do get to have around 2 school approved absences if I decide to tour a college. VCU just so happens to be a college. VCU just so happens to be the college that I applied to attend next year. So...I'll just use that as my school approved absence. As for the other team members, I have no clue. I wish them luck in dealing with the whole absence from school issue.

[Safarley2901]

Get them to call out sick. They can't technically do anything to you. Or you could always get ur parents to move to Fairfax county. Alexandria was the #1 school system in the country for a while, I don't know if it still is

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by Safarley2901

Get them to call out sick. They can't technically do anything to you. Or you could always get ur parents to move to Fairfax county. Alexandria was the #1 school system in the country for a while, I don't know if it still is

OOO-GAH! OOOO-GAH! GRACIOUS PROFESSIONALISM ALERT!

Would it make your grandmother proud to know that you are skipping class on purpose, then lying about it?

[Tristan Lall]

Originally Posted by SURVIVORfan44

...Since students are not allowed into the meetings, we can't exactly show the schoolboard how it gives us the experience....

Who is allowed into the meetings? Just board members? That would hardly be very transparent.

Originally Posted by Billfred

OOO-GAH! OOOO-GAH! GRACIOUS PROFESSIONALISM ALERT!

Would it make your grandmother proud to know that you are skipping class on purpose, then lying about it?

The real ethical dilemma is whether the greater evil is skipping class under false pretenses to do something more productive, or letting the school board make a bad decision on your behalf. (That is to say, you think that it's more productive, and that they're making a bad decision, though they might disagree on both counts.) I can think of a few situations where skipping class and lying about it would be more efficaceous (for your purposes) than trying to convince an unwilling or incompetent school board—but that's not licence to make arbitrary mischief. In standing up for your needs, you have to weigh that sort of decision very carefully; is it honourable, is it legal, is it necessary, have you exhausted all simpler options? Most importantly, are you absolutely sure that you're right, and they're wrong; and is this fact demonstrable? Though civilized protest is considered an annoyance, it's generally tolerated by society; if you have to break the rules, do it cautiously and with due consideration—it's by no means the easy way to get what you feel that you deserve. And you're very probably going to get in trouble for doing it. So is the trouble worth it? That's not something that we can tell you; it's a judgment call.

For the sake of completeness, is there another option by which you might avoid the dilemma in the first place, while still getting what you want? Or worse, does the school board actually have a good, solid reason for doing what it's doing? Carefully address these points, before undertaking any sort of violation of the rules, in order to make the best of a bad situation.*

Originally Posted by HRobotics

Unfortunately, our school (Havergal College in Toronto, Canada) does not fully understand FIRST or appreciate it as much as our team. This year, we aren't doing the FRC. Recently, we've also had a conflict with them concerning power tools, which they won't let us use anymore. This means that we can't build for fun like we had originally planned to do. This also means that we may not be able to go back to FIRST next year either. Of course, the whole team is extremely upset about this. We've tried talking to the school but our questions about why they are placing these restrictions have gone unanswered. Are any other teams out there experiencing similar problems? If so, how are you dealing with it? If not, do you have any ideas?

Someone mentioned earlier that parents are the customers; frighteningly enough, this is the sad reality. (Sad, because students are not infrequently caught between their own parents and a school's administration—but that's another story....) You may be able to use this to your advantage. Call me a little cynical, but since Havergal is a private school, the connection between ongoing financial support and the parents is probably pretty obvious to the administration; I'd imagine that they'll tend to be more open to your parents' concerns, than yours.

I'm curious as to what the reasons for their power tool limitations are. I suspect liability (and therefore insurance) is partly the reason. Of course they're insured against various sorts of harm that may befall you at school; but do you have details of the policy—does it cover the things that are inherent to robotics? This information shouldn't be withheld from you (after all, the policy covers you, as a student); ask your principal directly for this (and for the name of the insurer), and see what answer you get. If their policy doesn't cover robotics, ask them what it would take to get it added. There might be an increased premium to add coverage (and you'd be on the hook for the difference), but that's better than not having a team in the first place.

If it's just a general fear of injury that prompts them to keep you away from the power tools, education is likely the answer. In this situation, you've got to make clear to them that you know what you're doing; this means, firstly, making sure that everybody actually does know what they're doing, and secondly, proving this to the school. I should hope that they will be receptive to this sort of logic—after all, they're probably as likely to lose a hand in a car accident as you are to lose a hand to an out-of-control tool, and in both cases, informed and responsible users mitigate the risk of injury. Show them that you're not at unreasonable risk, and they might relent.

The worst case is, of course, if they have some ideological reason for not supporting robotics, or technical skills in general; perhaps they think it unfeminine**, unprofessional or uneducational. We would consider these things to be totally fallacious, but how do you convince someone else of this? That's something to discuss in more detail, if this is an issue.

If nothing works out, there are many teams in the Toronto area that would certainly be open to acquiring some extra talent for the build season; don't hesitate to talk to other local teams about a "Plan B", both for the 2006 season, and for the future, if you're still at an impasse.

*Alright, I realize that this is a controversial position, but it is not outside of the realm of possibility that a school board might be so fundamentally out of touch with reality, that the best resolution to a given situation involves—after thorough examination of the options available—breaking a few rules. Look at Dover, PA, for instance....
**Havergal is a girls' school, for those who didn't know, and didn't catch the unsubtle contextual clue.

[SURVIVORfan44]

Originally Posted by Tristan Lall

Who is allowed into the meetings? Just board members? That would hardly be very transparent.

School Board members and faculty/staff. The only way students can talk directly to the schoolboard during one of their meetings is through letters. Many people write letters. We could have written a million letters and their minds would not have changed. Our school board had their minds set on having a team without the merge. If we had to do it this way (which we're not) we'd have to raise an additional amount of money very fast.

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by SURVIVORfan44

School Board members and faculty/staff. The only way students can talk directly to the schoolboard during one of their meetings is through letters. Many people write letters. We could have written a million letters and their minds would not have changed. Our school board had their minds set on having a team without the merge. If we had to do it this way (which we're not) we'd have to raise an additional amount of money very fast.

Does your state have an open meetings law? In South Carolina, anybody can attend school board meetings, not to mention get most records for just the price of copying. I can't really imagine having it any other way.

[Beth Sweet]

Originally Posted by Billfred

Does your state have an open meetings law? In South Carolina, anybody can attend school board meetings, not to mention get most records for just the price of copying. I can't really imagine having it any other way.

Billfred,

If you're posing this to the initial poster, there are 2 things that may inhibit that. #1, they go to a private school. Private schools have all-around different rules. #2, they're from Canada. Once again, Canada has different rules, though typically they are very similar.

[Tristan Lall]

Originally Posted by Beth Sweet

Billfred,

If you're posing this to the initial poster, there are 2 things that may inhibit that. #1, they go to a private school. Private schools have all-around different rules. #2, they're from Canada. Once again, Canada has different rules, though typically they are very similar.

Beth, he's posting with regard to 1610's question; they had similar issues to the team from Canada, but they're from Franklin, Virginia.

Speaking of which, members of 1610 should take a look at this link, and especially Section B. I believe that covers in adequate detail what needs to be done to be heard before the Franklin school board. Specifically, see sections BBBB and BDDH for opportunities for student participation. Per section BDDH, "[a]ny citizen may address the Board at any regular meeting", if proper prior notice is given; additionally (as a separate right afforded you by these bylaws), if a student (or certain others) wishes to make a presentation for 5 minutes during the "citizens' time" portion of the meeting, he needs only to notify the clerk before 7:30 p.m. on the day of the meeting. (Note that the closed portions of meetings are handled differently, but that shouldn't be an issue for you, because you aren't discussing confidential information.) Per section BDDG, the minutes of every meeting are kept, and available for a nominal copy charge, during business hours to any Virginia citizen, at the school board office. They're also required to submit to a FOIA request, if things really get out of hand.

So, with a copy of that document in hand, get the team together to make a full-fledged presentation (not the 5-minute citizens' time, if you can help it); be organized, and make your appointment well in advance. Billfred was right—you're entitled to participate in the administration of your education system. I don't know who told you that you're only allowed to write letters to the board, but you should probably have a word with them about that misconception.

Also, be nice to them; they observe Robert's (Revised) Rules of Order, and will expect that you conduct yourselves accordingly. Just give them the facts, in a nice, sincere presentation, and then hope that they see past the money problems....

[Nuttyman54]

keep in mind that the school does not need to fund the team. My team receives no funding whatsoever from our school, they simply provide us with a staff advisor and a place to work

[Safarley2901]

My School more or less did the same. Our Techology supervisor for the school system and thought it was cool so she set the team up. The school basically said, if you can raise the money yourself, and get some sort of adult to supervise (In our case those would be the couple of mentors with us on the team) Then go ahead. But then again, the Machine shop we have been using was 5 years old, and hadn't had a class in it. So we had to replace almost everything this year short of a laithe, Using the funding we had aquired.



***

Note: To any one who was offended, the post about having your parents call you off school, if the school didn't support the team was a Joke. Just so we're clear .

[SURVIVORfan44]

Yeah I'm using 1610's number, because I'm part of their team now. (Supposedly). All of our 616 mentors joined 1610's team because they're not dealing with our school board and their issues anymore. But our team number was 616. And the reason why we couldn't go to the school board meeting was because it was a closed one in which they met to decide our fate. If we wanted to attend, we would have had to submit a proposal to the school board and then they would have to vote to see if we could get in 7 days prior. We didn't know until 3 days before of the meeting.